"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Here's why Watchtower's own literature is their worst enemy:

    "To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." (Watchtower Feb. 15, 1983; p. 12)

    So, as many have correctly pointed out, not even WT can identify an "organization" from the 1st century to Russell. Essentially, doesn't this mean (according to WT theology) every Christian for that 1900-year period is screwed because they had absolutely no way to gain "everlasting life" since there was no "organization" they could "identify" and join?

    jgnat's quote says is all:

    "Karl closed this research project by promising this assertion would never again be made, although, to this day, the teaching has not been abandoned."

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    I'm not sure if it's been mentioned specifically, but for this topic I'll agree that he's used organizations sometimes. But what do we learn from the Bible's recorded accounts about these organizations?

    During the vast majority of the history of Israel, the kings and priests were wicked. Historically, it was only individuals that stood out as faithful. And even faithful individuals were easily corrupted by the power that comes with position in an organization. When you read the account of Jehu, for example, he was a determined fighter for Jehovah... until he was installed as king. Then he turned to worshipping the golden calves.

    Similarly with the Christians. How long did the early Christian organization remain faithful? Actually, the more organized they became with a clergy and complete conformity of belief, the more "apostate" WT considers them to be. And of course, with the organization came greater monetary demands of the leaders, and certainly for the Christians, they went from being the persecuted, to the persecuters.

    Is there an explanation in the scriptures that some future organization will appear? On the contrary, there are numerous warnings about being misled by false shepherds and false prophets. Nowhere is salvation promised by obedience to an organization.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Adam:

    BTW, if you think you're dealing with a judicial committee who responds to well-reasoned logical arguments that are backed up by scripture and/or well-researched history, and you think you can talk them out of their power and control, then YOU in fact, are completely delusional. They could be COMPLETELY and utterly wrong, but it's their game and they also get to serve as umpire to call their own shots and get to make up the score. You're not in control; THEY are, and they might tolerate your quirkiness, but you push it too far, and you'll be DFed so fast, your head will spin and the worst part is your own family will likely be shunning you....

    I couldn't agree more with you on this one; my point is that I need to persuade my family of it, not the Elders who I'm facing.

    Eden

  • BackseatDevil
    BackseatDevil

    Why does god have to be so f**king needy? He's GOD.

    Plus, Jesus came to preach against the organizations on earth at the time... it took until the 3rd century after he died for any reliable "organization" to be established.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    tornapart - "I usually say that God dealt primarily with individuals. As for Israel, it wasn't an 'organisation', it was a Nation. They rejected God as king (1 Sam 8:7) and things went from bad to worse. 'Organisation' wasn't a good thing, it was a bad thing in God's eyes. He had the Assyrians and Babylonians destroy it when it got too bad and then later Jesus condemned it. I've tried this tack with my hubby and he hasn't got a thing to say against it."

    I used a similar tactic with my dutiful JW mother when she brought up the "imperfect men" defense...

    "Mom, when I was growing up, you taught me that God expects us to live with the consequences of our mistakes; according to the Bible, not even the Nation of Isreal was shielded from the backlash when they got out of line, and they were supposedly God's chosen people. By that logic, the WTS and/or the Governing Body would not be spared any of the negative consequences of their misdeeds in the present day, either; even up to and including the dissolution of the Organization."

    Being an educated woman who actually respected logic and reason (believe it or not), she couldn't disagree.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    I have to agree with Billy's point above: The story of the Bible is really one of notable INDIVIDUALS standing up for what is right when the MAJORITY, especially those in positions of authority, are wrong/corrupt/evil, etc.

    These are the heroes of the Bible. The Pharisees, by contrast, are the villains.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I have not read the whole thread so this point may well have been made, apologies if so.

    But is not the latest teaching of the WT that there was no FDS, therefore no org. fromthe death of the Apostles until 1919 ? so J has not Always used an Org.

    The strongest point is Billy's above, even when the Org of the day, say the Temple and its Priests, were doing things properly it was individuals whom God approached and used, even more so if his Org, the King or the Priests were mis-behaving.

    Also, neither Jesus nor Paul directed people to an Organization for salvation.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    In thousands of years covered in the bible there is NO organisation spoken of.

    In early christian sect formation, people argued about teachings, as written in the NT. On one occasion, older men of several sects met to discuss doctrines, if anything this indicates a devolution of organisation and an evolution of intepretation and freedom. certainly, meeting to discuss opinion on foreskin does not an organisation make!

    If you read the letters at the end of the bible, it is clear that everyone was doing there own thing depending where they lived and what they believed. Again no organisation. The dude paul, roamed about judging people for not seeing things his way, but again that does not make an organisation at all. The only reason pauls books were in the bible, despite them being written 30-70 years after jesus died, paul never even meeting jesus....his books were hand picked by the roman catholic church who supported his romanesque view. Now THEY are the first official and organised group in the history of christianity and we all know they smell dodgy And WT would neverk ever, ever admit it. Do most JW's know that Paul settled and initiated the church? Its baloney to me, but historically there is more evidence for that than the existence of jesus for example.

    The nearest thing to an organisation, anywhere in the bible is the anointed kings of israel, a system long ago abandoned by the biblical god. It is dangerous to be under the fickle wavering of one man as evident by history and the bible. Hence that was scrapped by the almighty some time ago.

    Then there are the priests and pharisees, who....say what you want about them......did EXACTLY as the bible told them to, they were VERY good people by bible standards. But then the new testament comes along and quite clearly demotes the authority of all those hierarchical positions and makes it very clear it is all personal, you and the big G in the sky, the only mediator being the big J. Again.... No organisation.

    Now for me the easy answer is "why do i care what you think of the bible, it is all nonsense anyway!" but then I am an evil atheist. However, as you can see,even biblical reasoning does not in any way shape or form say ANYTHING of an organisation.

    If i was you, spend 2 weeks, researching the guts out of this issue because it is the one and only defence they have to exist and it is untrue to begin with. Show the elders the greek words, the other bible translations and the JW 'version'. Go right back to the greek and hebrew and prove them wrong. Use biblical dictionaries and guides and show them there was no such thing as ANY organisation. Dont do it without the research. Also dont celebrate early, let them go away and come back to you.... Empty handed!

  • adamah
    adamah

    Eden said-

    I couldn't agree more with you on this one; my point is that I need to persuade my family of it, not the Elders who I'm facing.

    Oh, I see (you didn't mention that in your OP).

    In that case, you likely CAN bamboozle your own family by playing up the very elements that the Early Church fathers tried to suppress, too, as I mentioned before: the gnostic-like passages that still resonate in the NT, stressing an individual's personal relationship with Christ (whether she realizes it or not, TEC is an example of a modern-day gnostic; she'd likely be happy to provide the scriptural basis for her beliefs).

    The early concepts of individuals meeting in private homes is classic gnosticism, where they drew lots to determine who played what role in the meeding, eg they allowed the women to lead the group, etc. This was vehemently suppressed in the questionable writings of "Paul" (likely an insertion) where he famously said women should remain silent in Church and taught by their hubbies at home. That's an example of the type of squabbles for control that were occurring in the more-democratic and egalitarian concepts of gnosticism vs the more authoritarian and rigid structure of orthodox beliefs.

    Your problem is the JWs are on the orthodox ultra-conservative end of the spectrum of Xianity, and some of the gnostic beliefs took it too far for the comfort of even many modern-day Xians, since they believed Jesus wasn't a mortal being (but only an apparation in spirit form), that God doesn't exist as a separate spirit being but is within us all (!), and there was no glory in dying as a martyr in the name of Christ since this life is all there is and there is no heavenly hope or after-life to look forward to, etc. Again, a surgical-like excision of gnostic beliefs would be required....

    Those heretical beliefs are exactly why they were actively suppressed by orthodox Xianity, since gnosticism was very much influenced by the infusion of Far Eastern beliefs (which were introduced in late Judaism and then Xianity via Zoroasterian beliefs, which occurred under the influence of the long-collapsed Persian Empire). However, some of the early Xian writers inserted some of that type of thinking into the NT, and many of those elements still resonate with many readers of the Bible.

    Adam

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Naturally, Adam was an organization; Noah was an organization; etc. etc. God can't save people all by Himself. Where else could we go and who else could God possibly choose to run His organization except proven bunglers in Brooklyn in 1919?

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