i wish more churches would preach truth like this (page 17)

J. Hofer

nice question, designs. i want to know the answer as well.

designs I think that's very difficult question to give an accurate answer. On one side when God created everything according to the Genesis account he said that everything was good it can give the impression that hell was not part of the 6 day creation at the same time Matthew 25 it says that hell was created for the devil and for the angels but it doesn't give an exact time so to be honest I don't know exactly when it was created

unstopableravens

as far is heaven the Bible says in Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and the earth but I'm also of the believe when it comes to the afterlife that heaven and earth become one another words when new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven that people are going to live forever on the earth.

J. Hofer

ravens, i really don't see the difference between what you believe now and what you did a while back as a JW. just some nitpicking. you probably should have stayed a JW for your family's sake.

unstopableravens

J H there is a world of difference between what I believe and what jehovahs Witnesses believe I believe you must be born again I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ I believe that Jesus is God I believe in hell I believe that there is not a two class system where one group goes to heaven and one group was on the earth and I believe the all believers should take part in communion

tec

i think the best way to see hell and the lake of fire is this. when a person commites a crime he is arrested, where does he go ? to jail(hell) than he sees the jugde than hes thrown in prison(lake of fire)

Not a bad analogy. Just that interpretation needs a bit of tweaking to bring it in line with the truth.

One committs a crime and goes to the holding cell (jail/hades/sheol/world of the dead... the wages of sin is death). Then on judgment day, one is given freedom (life)... or judgment (the lake of fire... the second death).

Because the account states specifically what the lake of fire IS: the second death. Even states it twice.

Your article that linked, and you also now, make it clear that you understand that the words translated for hell... comes mainly from hades/sheol (world of the dead)... not the lake of fire. Sometimes other words are used to translate into hell but come from something else; obscuring the original meanings. Does that not give you pause to consider the truth of this docrtine?

Your linked article has a lot of ideas that are not correct and I would rather continue our own discussion (rather than argue with someone who is not here) or move on to another point... but just from its summary:

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead.

There is no torment. Neither of those words connotate torment. And all the dead go there who are not in Christ... (wicked or otherwise.. although doesn't your theology state that all are wicked?)... including all the dead BEFORE Christ.

There is also NO inkling of two parts of hades as this author claims... some for the wicked and some for the 'good'... not from any of the prophets of Israel/or from anything written. I assume he has built that entire doctrine on his personal interpretation of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

But it does not hold when scrutinized.

The wages of sin is death. Not torment. Plus... now this author has added something new. The place of temporary torment... until those same ones are tossed into the place of eternal torment. But NONE of these in the 'temporary torment' have been judged yet... so as to be deemed wicked... or... deemed 'good'. So how can there be two places in the one place (hades)... some for the wicked and some for the good?

The judgment has not yet occurred!

Don't just accept what people are passing off as wisdom or reason or truth. THINK!

Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom.

Saints are those who are in Christ. No saint goes to the world of the dead, but rather these go under the altar. And again... see above for this idea of a good and bad half of hades.

Gehenna(Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies.

Even if his connection here is correct... the lake of fire is the second death.

And... those who were cast into gehenna (the refuse pit) were dead when they were thrown in. They were not thrown in alive. I'm fairly certain that at some point their bodies fully decomposed as well.

Something else in this doctrine that is a bit odd... just a little interesting tidbit. Remember this verse:

"Do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (this 'hell' is one that is translated from gehenna)

First of course... note the word used: destroy.

Not torment.

Second... this doctrine of hell emphasises that God must first give back the body so that both soul and body can be tormented (even though the word is destroy, not torment) in hell (gehenna). Putting the emphasis on the body being tormented after resurrection... since the soul was supposedly already being tormented in hades. (but that would not be just, and that is also not biblical, because... a) the wages of sin is death, and b) they have not been judged yet)

But from the words that Christ gave... the emphasis and addition is on the soul (spirit).

Fear not the one who can kill the body but not the soul... fear the one who can destroy both body and soul.

Again though: note that the words used in this instance are kill... and destroy. NOT torment and torture.

Just an interesting side note. Do you still want to discuss the doctrine of hell, or move on to one of the other points?

Peace to you,

tammy

unstopableravens

hey Tammy that's up to you we can talk about it more we can go on to something else either way I'm fine the only thing I could say to you .at this point sense you take Jesus at his words if Jesus were to try to convince somebody that are two different Destiny's when a person dies either a place of comfort or a place of torment could he have done a better job than what is there at luke chapter 16 :19 -31.Tammy please keep in mind even though I believe in hell Mr washer believes in hell I do not believe that a person has to believe in hell to be a Christian but I think this statement that you made at the beginning of your review of Mr washer sermon that he does not know Christ because he believes in hell is totally unfounded

tec

May I ask you something then Unstop?

Does the wts know Christ?

Why or why not?

(and you said you were going to address the other points.. so we can do that now if you want, but it is up to you if you still want to do that)

Peace,

tammy

tec

Also.. this is what I actually said:

This man does not know the Truth, and/or is not listening TO the Truth. (who is Christ) Else he would not be able to speak lies and call them truth.

Peace,

tammy

unstopableravens

They don't know him for a few reasons, one they don't listen to him, two they think he's an archangel.they deny his resurrection

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

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