The " HIGHER EDUCATION" thread!!!

by DATA-DOG 63 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I think the system is out of tune. I have never been to college, but sent my JW wife because she just had to go and WTS lightened up on college with an article way back when called "Education with a purpose."

    Out of tune- what I mean is that college is pretty much necessary for skilled workers in fields that used to have apprenticeships (on-the-job training) or for jobs that didn't need it before. Skilled labor still doesn't require college, but many other fields do.

    There's a good side to it- college helps people find themself, challenges them to think outside of their comfort zones, causes them to be stimulated.

    If I had a son or daughter, you bet I would do all I could to encourage college, but it would still be up to them. But in today's job market, I would aid them to have an edge. Sure, it's expensive, but having the means to pay it back means employment. You could also learn a trade and invest the money you would have spent for college and maybe be at the same place at retirement time anyway, maybe even better.

    I worked any old job I could get until the 1995 generation change told me I needed to retire and maybe die "in this system of things." I found a career that didn't require a degree, but was hard to get and got it. I think I was beyond any desire to go to college by the time I learned the real truth, so you can make it without college. But I would be in trouble if I lost this job, and a degree might keep me out of trouble. My master's degree wife is struggling right now, but her education will probably pull her through.

  • zeb
    zeb

    But dont forget folks the principle of OSFA One Size Fits All.

    We must all be kingdom clones.

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    Good thread.

    I agree with those folks who say that college isn't for everyone, but I think it can work if you know what your field is going to be and not just flail around at getting simply any kind of degree. I don't think a very expensive college education is necessarily the way to go either, unless your family is well connected. It doesn't have to be a Masters or Phd though, because I think a degree should be a means to an end (getting work, starting a career) and not an end in itself (just collecting degrees).

    I also don't think that, "higher education" has to be just university studies either. Why can't it mean junior college, trade schools, on the job training, self study, and so on?

    In the end though, the saying "knowledge is power" is often true, so I try to keep my education going even now, many, many years after I finished with formal college.

    AAWA published my rumination on this subject here: http://aawa.co/blog/im-proud-i-went-to-college/

    Brock Talon

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I fought very hard to finish high school against my father's wishes. B/c I attended a ghetto school in the late 1960s and early 1970s, I was exposed to enrichment programs and college recruiters. The colleges offered us trips and special encouragement. The Univ. of Pennsylvania was the first college I saw. We had a bag lunch and watched the college relays. My teachers encouraged me. No one in my family had ever attended college. It was a tough transition for me.

    College transformed me. First, we were taught that we had special privileges b/c the school was an integral part of the American establishment and the peace movement. Second, feminism had a Renaissance during my college years. My head would spin would I would be exposed to JW relatives when I was home. The collision of the cultures was awkward. I was very clear about which side I would take. My classmates complained a lot about school. Several said they envied my background. There was no doubt in my mind that I was blessed to be a full time student.

    Columbia profs had this attitude that hard questions must be asked. Higher education is not about learning facts. My law profs were not keen on teaching us law. They felt we could always research it on our own. We had to learn to think and not just conform. They were not investing time in us for us to be bureaucrats. When I first started practicing law, I was afraid to show much passion. I just prayed that I was providing correct answers. A partner came and asked me what my opinion was about a legal matter. He said he could hire someone from a fly by night school and get the correct answer. Rather, he was paying for my personal prejudices, experiences, etc. I had to grab a wall not to swoon right away. Visions of the KH danced through my head. The WT loved no questions. My core being, whatever it is that makes me, loved the Columbia way. Law school presented more pressure that we had special responsibilities to thwart bad situations. We repeatedly studied countries around the world where lawyers stopped normal work and became saboteurs.

    My relationship to authority changed. The WT can have its "let play adult" judicial councils and silly articles. I cannot respect any of it. Respect must be earned. I do see how even taking the college courses in high school altered the balance of power with the brothers. If you want my respect, learn how to read. Know Western civilization. My KH may have been atypical. I heard them make fun of William Shakespeare. When the magenta Kingdom songbook was issued, I had to hear about how bad the old one was. It contained melodies from Handel (mispronounced) and BEET-HOV-EN. Right, and b/c you have a penis, I am supposed to obey you? No way. There was this arrogance that facts are unimportant. It is not only the Witnesses. When I lived in PA, locals sneered at me and mocked my vocabularly. They said I used such big words as "reciprocity" and "venal." Ignorance is ignorance.

    The scary thing for me is that so many people are willing to never question their beliefs. Knowledge is viewed as dangerous rather than beneficial. Of course, the opening chapters of Genesis show how dangerous knowledge is.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    I did not get a degree because I "would never have time for a career in this system". I will always regret not getting one. I did end up working my way into a good job, but it took a long time and when my industry died due to changes in technology I was qualified for nothing and I was too old to start over in another field. I also think I would have been a better, more well rounded person if I had gotten an education.

    Every person is different, so whether you should go to college or not depends on what you want to do, your age, your aptitude and a lot of other things. If you don't know what to do, don't just borrow money and think it will all work out, carefully research what that degree will get you. In the end if you need to get a degree to do what you really want to do, and if there are paying jobs that it would get you, why not invest in yourself?

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    LisaRose: Every person is different, so whether you should go to college or not depends on what you want to do, your age, your aptitude and a lot of other things.

    Of course, I don't think anyone is saying that everyone should go to college. Our complaint against the WTBTS is that they say NO ONE should go.

    Who the f*ck are they to make that kind of decision for millions of people?

    Meanwhile, those 8 bastards live in luxury never having to worry about anything. They don't worry aboutpaying a mortgage, making a car payment, paying for their son/daughter's braces or even for putting food on the table. They have 7 million plus "slaves" completely paying for their every need. I'd like to put their heads up against a door or a doorpost and pierce their ear through with an awl. (Ex. 21:5, 6) - Watchtower, October 15, 2013, p. 12, paragraph 2.

    Bastards!

  • Syme
    Syme

    Name: Syme

    Age: 30

    Education: University degree in engineering (5-year course)

    Work: Full-time, but irrelevant to my degree. Currently trying to get an additional degree that is relevant to my job.

    Local background: The city I come from (and studied in) has a long tradition in higher education; the locals take pride in this, and this includes the local jws! Yes, the jws in this particular town are not against higher education. On the contrary, because of the influx of jw students from other towns every year, local jws are very happy to have a large university (and a college) in their city. Still, very few of the locals have actually attended university; the important thing is they do not look down upon it.

    Family background: My father converted to jw when I was a kid. He attended university and obtained a degree as a 'worldly'. I am grateful for this, because: (a) he was never a fanatical, and (b) he actually encouraged me to go to university. My mother is more of the typical not-fond-with-higher-education jw, but nonetheless, she never discouraged me from attending.

    You may have noticed that those above-mentioned attitudes are not exactly "in-line" with the GB directives. That is true. I find some comfort in the thought that not all jws, at least in my vicinity, adhere to the anti-college paranoia of the GB zealots.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Doing a degree at the moment,

    Best Parts: empowering, informative, life changing, matures you, gives you a foundation for thought and perception, sharpens critical appraisal of knowledge and data, develops independant thought.

    worst parts: finances, no support from JW/troubled family, exams are hurrendous, mental stress, considersble fear and anxiety with exams, LONG hours and no evenings/weekends that few appreciate are involved- come from a family of no education, constant threat of removal from degree, insecurity until the day they hand over the degree scroll......

    The best parts of a degree need cultivating and reflection to appreciate, the worst parts need managing so that one can complete the degree and function. I currently have to work full time hours on placement whilst doing all my degree teaching myself in evenings and weekends, this has been the case for 3 years now (in total will have done 7yrs in higher ed).

    I wouldnt swap it for ANYTHING in the world, I love my degree/job, I get to wake up in the morning and spend all day problem solving that results inhelping people. I love what I have been taught, the reason the 'worst parts' are so bad is how much the degree matters to me, failing or being removed from the degree is more of a threat because of how much I love it. I am fortunate that I am a few months feom qualifying so the threat of getting the boot in very, very low, but it still weighs over you. I have seen friends who were 4 years into their higher ed, removed from the degree for being 1% or 2% short in an exam. Exams in higher ed, especially the more challenging degrees, are no joke.... We stopped seeking egotystically pleasing marks a LONG time ago, now we wait with anticipation to read "pass". Our degree doesnt really have a ranking system that matters, there is a 100% job success with my degree from my university, there are high paid jobs literally waiting for us, so I am lucky. Some degrees require people to not trip up in a single exam or piece of work for the whole 3 years, such as economics. Bet a 'first' in such degrees and you are made for life, have a bad week and get a poor mark for some coursework and you cant make up for it in such degrees.

    I think education is invaluble, but also highly difficult. also to even get in, is such a roll of the dice. I did a pre-medicine course in the north of the Uk (there are maybe 4 of these courses in uk) with 60 people and only 12 got in to medicine, of that 12 probably 5 remain in medicine, near to qualifying. if I ever have children I will ensure they get the best, most stable education I can give them with as much support as I can afford, so that IF they choose that path , they can have the same advantages as the majority in the educational sphere, the privelaged. As much as I struggle seeing how much advantage the kids around me have, having had good educations, I would want no less for my children.

    I was a JW child, who went to 8 primary schools, at age 9 I went from Welsh language to English and a whole new curriculum too, the moves were due to my parents desicions. Then I attended a high school in a very impovrished area with a very low standard of education. Our high school certificate was awarded to us by the local factory manager, they made toilet roll, I remember his speech making me think there was no way I was good enough to work in his factory. I had no idea what university was or what it did when I left school, the Jw's made it sounds bad and I had no idea why someone would stay on at school, it was Vietnam! I was encouraged to become a painter/decorator or a joiner and worked in the local frozen food supermarket, stacking freezers. The head of the joinery (painting and dec course was full) in the college nearby course said I was going to waste on the joinery course and asked me if I wanted to be in the civil engineerig class, I said "Yes !", I loved art, design, drawing and construction. Week one we had to purchase our drawing boards, our drawing pens/pencils, and a laptop to practice CAD on etc......needless to say it ended there and pioneering began, I was 16.

    At age 26, after much inner turmoil realising my whole world/belief systems were a myth wrapped in a corporation, I had left the JW's and simply phoned up a college in Manchester which took me 3hrs of travel every day to attend, it was an access to medicine course. I always wanted to be a doctor since a you g boy, but never ever once considered I could do it or even HOW I could do it. I was accepted, which still amazes me. I would travel the 3 hrs for the 9am start. I had to do 6 A level (uk higher education qualifications- maths, physics, biology, chemistry, english, IT) and get a minimum of an A* grade 'with distinction' to get into medicine, in every piece of work and every exam I needed a distinction. I would then travel back the 3hrs and twice a week in the evenings I was attending evening classes to re-do my high school qualifications in order to have the minimum req for medical school in Math and English.

    10 months later I was offered a place in medical school, a month after my results and I was on a train with all my belongings, heading to University...

    and I have never looked back.......

  • Oh Gawd
    Oh Gawd

    Never A JW, but I have a B.S. in economics, and an MBA. I've never had trouble earning money and being in the top 5% of income earners, but I think that's more because of my drive and the schools I went to than the actual degrees. Picking the right school is even more important now I feel since so many get degrees these days.

    However, I see a lot of posts here and else where that talk about college as though it's some sort of trade school. The value of college IS NOT getting a good job. In fact, chances are you may never work in your actual field of study. I never have.

    The reason to go to college is to learn how to learn. The exposure to new ideas, people from other cultures, having to study stuff you had no interest in, the networking; it all pays off in the end.

    Five years after college I would have said college was bs. Twenty five years later I can say without a doubt going to college was the single best decision I ever made.

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    Name: Jeff Thomas

    Age: 62

    Education: BA English 1973 College level Certificate in Business Management 1983

    Work: retired accountant, doing some free lance writing

    I started college in 1969, my primary motivation being to maintain a II-s draft deferrment. My parents, being well educated and non-religious supported me. I thought I wanted to be an English teacher, without doing any research into job prospects when I graduated. I started studying with the JW's my senior year, I was baptized a few months after graduation. At the time, there were no jobs for English teachers, I turned down a chance to go to grad school and took odd jobs for a number of years. When I decided that was a dead end I went back to school to study business/accounting. I took some serious flack from the Witnesses over it, but I did it any way. Good decision that led to some good jobs.

    In 1988 a hardline anti-education talk at a circuit assembly provided the catalyst for our research and eventual break with the WTBS. My own experience led me to question what they were saying on the subject of college. I wanted my own children to do better.

    I think college is very much what you make of it. My first run at it didn't work out to well because I wasn't serious about it. The second time around I took it very seriously and it showed. Running various accounting departments I've had college educated people working for me that had no idea what they were doing. One of the best accounting assistants I ever had earned her GED and took a couple of bookkeeping classes somewhere, but she was smart, hard-working and willing to learn. Made all the difference in the world.

    Incidently, the English degree proved very useful. I made good use of my skills writing internal audit reports, policy and procedure manuals and communicating with investors (most of my work has been in commercial and multi-family real estate).

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