The " HIGHER EDUCATION" thread!!!

by DATA-DOG 63 Replies latest jw friends

  • JakeM2012
    JakeM2012

    There are many good points brought up so far. My Dad and oldest brother opposed me going to the University after High School. They both visited with me many times about it, but Dad eventually told me that I would have to leave his house if I wanted to go to the University. So I abandoned my goal, lived with parents and worked in the family business. Looking back, that was a huge mistake, but I was young and had no other place to go or means to make a living, or so I thought. Mixing a witness family in business and in the congregation is painful. But I have always supported education and when I was active as a JW, on a personal level I have been vocal with younger ones encouraging them to not make the same mistake I had.

    I enjoy learning and have a large appetite to continue learning. In the world we live in with things chang so fast you must be able to quickly access quality information, learn, and make decisions even after a degree. Life long learning is and has been crucial for balance and success.

    On a previous post I spoke about a brother who had spent most of his 65 years of life in Bethel and had been reassigned out of Bethel to the congregations and to provide for himself. He said he was struggling in accounting getting enough customers. He said that every potential customer that he meets asks, "Where did you go to the Unversity?". As you guessed, he has little to say and is 65 now, and without a degree struggles to convince others to become his customers.

    Most of us will agree that the recent years of the economy have not been the most properous. Those with College degrees at the worst of the economy had a 4 percent high unemployment, while those without degrees were coping with 12-16% unemployment. (On memory)

    The economy also varies from place to place, even here in the U.S. Anywhere you go there can be opportunities, some may jump out at you and others you might stumble upon, being at the right place at the right time. Some very young men in my old congregation hit the surge of residential construction before 2007 and they did well. (I don't know how they are doing now). I've talked with others who were just as qualified or even more talented in other parts of the country and they were struggling.

    I was forced by other family members (stock holders) to walk away from the "family" business after Dad died. They wanted to liquidate all assets and have some immediate cash bling right then. I believe they thought the end would be here before they burnt through their money. So a new day began for me. I moved far enough away from the family that they would never affect me again. Time, distance, and shielding has protected me from the toxic family.

    I applied for many jobs and I will admit I shot high. Two different companies human resources' called me back and said that I was probably the most experienced applicant, but I lacked a four year degree, and they only hire degreed people. So in my situation with the work I wanted and was capable of, without a degree the door of opportunity did not open. I thought that listing my accomplishments and experience would open a door for me, but my eyes were opened about what the real situation was.

    So at every opportunity I visited with many "degreed" individuals that assisted me in making a decision to go for a four year degree. One "brother" told me that it took him 16 years after getting out of the navy to get his degree and now he works for the NRC. Others told me that the work environment changed and that they were approached by the company and told that they would have to at least begin a four year degree to retain their current job, and that eventually their job would require a degree, they were told that when it is a requirement, "hopefully, you will have graduated". Specifically, On one recent job the men working in safety were telling me that orginally they were able to get into safety without a degree, but things have changed, and now men that were in their 50's and 60's were taking courses.

    In 2008 I entered the online course with the University of Phoenix for a degree in business administration. I completed the last course earlier this year. I have not done anything with the degree yet, but I have it in my pocket if my work situation ever changes, and as some will say, "Nobody can take the degree away from you". This is important.

    I will clarify that I doubt the financial benefits of many degrees and would have difficulty justifying the cost. For example, I spoke with a young man (if I remember this correctly) that was studying Russian poetry, not as an elective course, but to have a degree in it. My question is basic: how is he going to make a living with that? Perhaps someone reading can assist me.

    When I entered my online courses in 2008, I started encouraging my wife to find a profession that she wanted to learn, and she recently graduated, passed the state exam, and is employed at the local hospital. Her wages being a first year nurse are lower than if she had at least two years of experience. But, once she has the experience she will get a substantial increase. The back side of this is that she probably will have to continue on with her education to attain a Bachelors degree. Even though this is not required to go to work initially, having a Bachelor's degree is becoming the industry standard expectations.

    As mentioned, many say, "Nobody can take a degree, or education away from you". Sure, a college degree used to mean more than it does now, just because more people can attain them they are not as rare today. However, the industries have raised standards for employment that require degrees, certifications, etc. to qualify for many of the jobs. An individual that has a degree indicates that he or she is somewhat "fit for duty", or in theocratic language, "tested as to fitness".

    If you have the degree it will not necessarily guarantee your employment, but having a degree will ensure that the door is not shut in your face either . Once you have the employment, it is up to you individually, to behave and make good sound decisions. Personally, I believe that it is a testemony to the qualities of an individual that is willing to invest several years of their life and money to learn the basics and become adapt and capable at their profession, and that have demonstrated their ability to stick with a long range goal and achieve it. Funny, Once you've graduated, no one ever asks what you GPA was.

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    I think this is an excellent thread

    My early years of schooling I remember as being indoctrinated , brainwashed with the alphabet and the times tables , repetition , repetition and repetition .

    I thank you my first teacher Miss Staples for the 4 years you drummed that into me , otherwise I would not have acheived what I did.

    My last years of schooling was at a Technical School where you could learn a trade ,woodwork ,machinary, metalwork etc. ,I was in my third year and did not appreciate the value of education , in the last year I was was a constant truant. I left when I turned 14 years as was legal then before gaining my juniour certificate completing 3 years. Wanting to earn money I took a job at a leathergoods manufacturing business and took on an appreticeship for 5 years . After 12 years I decided I couldnt stand it any more and wanted out It was near the end of this period that I became a Jehovahs witness.I applied for a job at Kodak and was succesful in their chemical testing division.,where I remained for 5 years .The opportunity arose to go interstate to Qld,which we took , and I ended up working for G.F>petrololeum in QLD.in their laboratory

    After a few more work changes I eventually worked for BP refinery which gave me and my family a future.

    So I can honestly say that my first teacher Miss Staples who gave me the basics of education times tables and alphabets set me up for life.Thank you.

    Your looking at the higher education for success , but I would say its the earliest education that can bring success the later education only confirms it.

    smiddy

  • scotoma
    scotoma

    male

    68 years old

    baptized at 10

    My early life I wanted to be a scientist.

    I saved my allowance for 4 years to buy a quality microscope from edmund scientific at the age of 11.

    I loved that microscope. It was 300x. I looked at everything with it. I made slides of everything I could

    I would gaze for hours at microorganisms floating in pond scum.

    At the age of 12 I built my own weather station out of milk cartons, my sisters hair (hygrometer), I learned the various cloud formations that help me predict weather better than I can get off the weather channel today.

    At 12 I started rock collecting. ON our family vacations to the west coast I would stop and dig in the dirt for rocks I would later identify and assemble into a decent rock collection that I still have.

    I hardly read any fiction that wasn't required by my school.

    My nose was always buried in science books like 1,2,3 Infinity. Design of the Universe. The education of T.C. Mits (The common man in the streets)

    When I heard there was a comet that would only be visible with a 30 power telescope I scavenged some eyepieces from my microscope combined them with a good magnifying glass so I could see my first comet. I even brought that makeshift telescope to the kingdom hall to show some of the other kids the comet. They weren't very interested and made fun of me.

    At 13 I made my own wilson cloud chamber so I could see the tracks of cosmic rays.

    I devoured Scientific American.

    My 8th grade science teacher let me stay after school and use the schools glassware (beakers and retorts) to do experiments in organic chemistry.

    My 8th grade science teacher also took me to the local meeting of the geological society on the first Tuesday of every month. Even though we had a book study in our home my parents understood my passion and let me skip the meeting.

    I was put in the accelerated science program that was started because Russia lauched Sputnik.

    In 9th grade I built a chamber for determining how much CO2 was absorbed by plants in the sunlight vs. dark.

    IT all came to a halt that year.

    I picked up on the anti-education atmosphere at the Kingdom Hall. All the experiences of people turning down scholarships to pioneer, go to Bethel or Giliead.

    I wanted to live forever so I could pursue research forever.

    I gave my first hour talk at the age of 17. I became the school overseer at 18.

    When I told my witness parents I was going to pioneer they were disappointed. They knew my passion for science and learning.

    They encouraged me to go to College because they felt I needed that and wouldn't be happy doing anything else.

    After 9th grade I more or less quit pursuing good grades because I knew I wouldn't go to college.

    I was a 3rd generation JW going back to Russells day.

    Even though my parents were willing to pay for my college education I didn't listen to them. I only listened to the Watchtower.

    I have become old. I don't believe in God. I became atheist in my outlook even without the "corrupting" influence of the University.

    Doing janitorial work and washing windows and trying out various multi-level marketing programs I have lived someone else's life.

    I am living a life of a bunch of people all of whom are dead and rotting just like their extinct doctrines.

    The moral of this story is that parents need to be careful about the direction the organization is giving to their young children. At some point those kids will be the property of the organization and will do as they tell them. Even if you changed your mind they may not change theirs.

    'I will say one thing. After seeing how botched up my life is my kids have pursued advanced degrees and no longer claim to be JW's.

    I not mad at the Watchtower for robbing me of my life. I am mad at the Watchtower for robbing me of the "meaning" of life.

    A person's "vocation (calling) is nature defining your life's work. I ignored my true nature.

  • LivingTheDream
    LivingTheDream

    Scotoma,

    Heartbreaking.

    A cautionary tale.

    This almost happened to me, but once at Bethel I woke up and decided to leave there in order to go to college. Even though I was "punished" for doing that, I didn't care. It turned out to be the right thing to do, but I wasn't 100% sure of that at the time.

    Someday I would like to write your story, or at least, write the story of the many people like you who have lost their meaning of life. I'm heartbroken and pissed off about this now...

    Brock Talon

  • Bungi Bill
    Bungi Bill

    Age:59

    Education:

    Left high school with what used to be called "University Entrance." Was selected by a large organisation as part of a group that they were prepared to sponsor through the Bachelor of Engineering course. That would have required one further year of high school. However, none of this ever happened, as the elders had some sway over my parents (non-JWs, but at that time were "studying" with a pioneer couple). Instead, I commenced an apprenticeship as a telecommincations technician.

    However, that, too wasn't good enough for the local elders, who made me abandon my apprenticeship after 12 months - to get set up for "the full time ministry."

    Fortunately, I was later able to take up my trade training again:

    - not exactly in the same field I had started out in, but at least in a trade with something in common.

    Formal Qualifications:

    (i) Licensed Electrician (The Australian States of Queensland ,Tasmania and South Australia - plus also Papua New Guinea and New Zealand)

    (ii) Certificate of Engineering (City & Guilds)

    These were enough to get me into the Electrical Testing side of the trade, which was the one that interested me the most. With the experience I then gained through working at the testing and commissioning of large power plants , I was later able to work my way into a senior management role. However - and this is a big however - that was only possible by electing to live in some violence prone Third World country:

    - the same position in Australia (or similar countries) would require at leasta Bachelor of Engineering degree.

    Work:

    Currently employed on a large mining site, looking after the High Voltage infrastructure. My previous industry experience was enough to get me the job. However, I am now having to gain formal engineering qualifications in order to retain it. Since August, I have been enrolled on an online course in engineering, which will lead to an Advanced Diploma, plus membership of the Institute of Engineers.

    The often-repeated, glib remark that it is "never too late" is true enough as far as it goes (I proved that by completing an adult apprenticeship as a married man with three young children). However, like most other glib statements, this one also does not quite go far enough! An adult apprenticeship was rough going, very hard on my family, and outright destructive on my marriage. The online course, too, after putting in (what is for me) a typical eleven hour workday does require, shall we say, certain sacrifices!

    To any young persons lurking here, don't do what I did. While it is possible to pick it up later, you are saving yourself a lot of grief by entering the degree course straight from high school.

    Bill

    PS: And #!^& the JW religion that takes on themselves to bash education and frighten their young peolpe of a college education !

  • Narcissistic Supply
    Narcissistic Supply

    Fuck all that man. These guys got a 4th grade mentality. You bully the fuck out of someone. Whatever it takes.

  • Bungi Bill
    Bungi Bill

    Narcissistic Supply,

    You just expressed my feelings totally, but without adhering to the forum guidelines as to language, that I felt constrained by!

    Bill.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    Scotoma

    That is very sad. You know, you could take classes on line for free from many universities. It's never to late to learn. You may not work in your chosen field, but who knows? You could volunteer in retirement. You have years ahead of you and just the fact you did it could be a reward in itself.

    I am you age and while I have no reason to go back to college, I haven't stopped learning. I have a small business that involves many kind of things, painting and fixing furniture, antiques, sewing, collage, jewellery making, etc. I don't plan to ever stop learning and trying new things. I also did a website and a blog for my business also. Pinterest has revolutionized my work. All the knowledge in the world is at our fingertips with the internet now, there is no excuse not to learn.

    Some have made the point that going to college is not just for a job, it's to teach you to learn and think

    and that is so true. That is my main regret about not going. I did eventually learn to learn, but it was hard. I taught myself how to program, it was always interesting to me. I started with complicated excel programs and then learned two simplified coding languages. So you can learn things without college, but you will learn them faster and better with it.

  • scotoma
    scotoma

    I must confess that I did continue my education. But it was self-taught. So I could have something in my mind while I did my boring job I have read very close to 2000 books in the last 30 years. I even helped an old guy in his 80's (a fairly well known science fiction writer) get his doctoral degree by providing him some important information for his Doctoral Thesis. Some of my personal research ended up in a psychological textbook, and also Men's fitness magazine. I am known by some of the experts in my narrow area of interest. Just haven't had time to pursue my ideas like I would prefer. Raising a family on a pittance doesn't leave much time for other things. Just remembered that Rupert Murdocs text book company uses one of my diagrams in a physical education text book.

    The crazy thing about this is that after a couple years of pioneering I decided I just couldn't do that and I decided I would go to the convention in Toronto (1966) and then plan on going to college to study geology and perhaps get a job with a mining company. That was the convention that they released "Life Everlasting In The Freedom of The Sons Of God". That was the book that started the death march to 1975. I figured I would just keep pioneering or focus heavily on the ministry with only 9 years left to the end. That fateful decision set the course for muddling through the 47 years until now.

    Every once in a while I get a shepherding call from a couple of Elders who want to encourage me. One time I asked them what they did for a living.

    Both of them had fallen out of the "truth" when they were young men and went to college. They told me not to advertise that. So I notice that none of these people who come in with a college education and have good jobs are willing to pioneer and wash windows. Some of them are set up with great jobs and earn an equal amount to their regular job as consultants. I offer to train them as janitors if they want to pioneer.

  • mamochan13
    mamochan13

    Scotoma - I did many of the same things you did in anticipation of 1975.

    I'm getting close to 60. My JW friends were all quitting high school to go pioneering (based on counsel from circuit overseers). I managed to finish, but even though I was smart and the top of my class, I chose to devote my life to the religion. My non-JW dad made some feebly attempts to get me to go to college, but my JW mom ran the family.

    I left the religion some 20 years ago. One of my first actions was to enrol in university. Then my marriage broke up and I became eligible for full-time student funding as a single parent which helped with my living expenses. It was great for the first few years, but I then was no longer eligible for any help and had to pay most of my education through student loans while working full time.

    I earned a graduate degree two years ago after about 12 years total (most via distance university), but it was a real struggle financially and I almost didn't make it. Some family issues interfered with me actively pursuing a career initially, and by the time I was able to focus on a career in the field I hold my degrees in, I've started to find that ageism is preventing me from getting in the door. I haven't given up, but I'm in a position where I have to look for jobs in remote areas at beginning studnet rates which make it very difficult financially and emotionally.

    I'm not sorry, though. Going to university was the best decision of my life. I learned more about myself and the world and other people than I did in my whole lifetime. Going to university saved my life.

    The downside is the student loans. They are crushing me and have ruined my credit rating. Had I gone to university when I was young my life would be so much better now. I hate the religion for preventing me from doing that.

    I would love to be back in university. In fact, I keep enrolling in coursera free courses - only managed to complete one so far, but it's great to challenge my brain and stay in the loop.

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