Comatose are you referring to me?
Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist
by DS211 243 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
cofty
I'm certain he is referring to Tammy's habit of breaking down people's posts into tiny chunks and responding to each syllable ad nauseum
-
DS211
Oh ok lol hard to keep up
-
adamah
DS211 said- didnt Jesus ask his father to forgive all the ones who tortured him? "Forgive them for they know not what they do?" Thats not healing but they showed lack of faith and he still asked for forgiveness for them. Yet you see he told the criminal that showd faith that hed be with him in paradise, and said nothing to the one who didnt show faith....is that not a contradiction? Sry just a random thought i had when inread your post.
Yup, that's right, where the most obvious example is Jesus' forgiveness of the thief who was hanging besides him (i.e. determining whether the sinner will be taking the 'up' or 'down' elevator after death, a flagrant example of an anachronistic metaphor which is as inappropriate as inserting evolution into Genesis One).
Of course, the issue I was addressing was different, i.e. the claimed basis of Jesus' power to heal, and not his ability to determine the sinner's fate in the afterlife (which is addressed elsewhere, by separating the sheeps vs goats, etc).
DS211 said- And llease enough about tec....i cant prove or disprove that she is or isnt chattin with Christ so ill stick to the post she gives, research it and if i dont find much truth in the words ill discard and move on. :-) whre were we?!?! Lol
Yup, it's important to offer supportive evidence, and not just take the lazy way out by falling back on unproven dogmatic claims; the former encourages people to think for themselves (even TEC!), and the latter are simply weak 'appeals to authority' (which ex-JWs should've had a bellyful to last a lifetime).
Comatose said- Good points Adam. I suspect the response will amount to, all I can tell you is what my LORD says. He is the spirit and truth. If you have ears to listen you will hear.
OMG, DUDE!
I don't suppose you have obtained the gift of prophecy from..... God?
Adam
-
DS211
Adamah said --
Yup, that's right, where the most obvious example is Jesus' forgiveness of the thief who was hanging besides him (i.e. determining whether the sinner will be taking the 'up' or 'down' elevator after death, a flagrant example of an anachronistic metaphor which is as inappropriate as inserting evolution into Genesis One).
forgive me but can youelaborate on this perhaps in laymans terms lol being a recently awakening JW im unfamiliar with some of this...specifically the flagrant anachronistic thingy ma jig. Thanks
-
bohm
Ds: But then again i am also aware in certain flaws of carbon dating, but dont know near enough yet to make a solid base for either argument.
i really really want to point out the arguments put forward by the wt and most creationists against carbon dating are either dishonest or very flawed. most importantly they hide the many independent supportive lines of evidence which confirm carbon dating. If you are interested in this, shoot me a pm or ask.
-
DS211
bohm you have a PM...my wife might kill me when she finds out how far ive fallen from jw....*sigh*
-
adamah
Ds211, I was referring to MY conscious usage of an elevator metaphor to explain Jesus' separation work of determining one's final destination after death; that's an example of an anachronism, since elevators didn't exist in 33CE. The tendency to great to project our Worldviews when reading historical documents, and historians are acutely aware of the tendency and try to avoid it, whereas the average believer is not even aware of the phenomena.
Point being, the author of Genesis didn't know anything about evolution, since it's not even patently obvious to humans who haven't visited a Natural History museum, or examined the fossil and DNA evidence, etc).
So YET another missed opportunity for God to reveal Divine knowledge that could confirm His existence when Darwin et al confirmed evolution, rather than leaving believers having to insert concepts where there's no indication of them even existing (and worse, requires mauling the Hebraic text to force it to fit).
"Updating" of the Bible continues to this day, even with the WT's Revised NWT: it removes all references to anatomical organs which are even found in the NWT (eg heart/kidneys), thus burying the embarrassing clues that point to God's ignorance of human anatomy. Many other Bible translations have followed suit over the past century, since the references reflect the way ancient Hebrews misconceived of the World (and it'll be interesting to see how they eliminate the 'firmament' (Hebrew word, raqia), the solid blue half-dome that covered the Earth as if it were a snow-globe, and to which the Sun and moon are attached, as if trac-lights).
Here's how Jews conceived of the Earth:
From: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/07/hebrew-universe.html
Adam
-
tec
So... Adam going post by post to my points is fine... you don't find that annoying. But me doing the same... that IS annoying. Double standard there, Coma, revealing your own bias.
Of course, TEC FINALLY played her 'trump card' (at least, what she thinks of as her 'trump card', when everyone else might call it a 'chump card'), the one where she claims to possess TRUTH directly from Jesus; it was played to support the claim that God allowed evolution to be "baked into the cake" in Genesis.
Not a trump card... or it would actually work with people, right? Nor have i ever said that anyone has to believe or should believe just because I (or another) claims to have learned it from the Spirit. Please re-read that sentence, anyone who IS reading, because it contradicts the whole 'trump card' accusation.
I countered with Jesus' ignorance of other TRUTHS about "God's creations" which we've since learned from science, eg Jesus didn't know anything about the germ theory of disease, since he poo-poohed the value of handwashing;
No, he did not poo=poo handwashing. The Pharisess were finding fault with Christ and his disciples by asking why they forego the traditions of the elders by not giving their hands CEREMONIAL washing. Hence ceremonially 'unclean' hands. Christ pointed out their hypocrisy. The whole cleaning the outside of the cup (or vessel, that is us)... but inside the cup (or vessel) is unclean.
Read the entire accounts at Mark 7: 1-23; and Matthew 15: 1-20
So those accounts have nothing to do with ignorance of germs; there was another lesson at play, the one on hypocrisy, the one on what is unclean. (meaning what is in the heart: and that what comes out of the heart is what makes a man unclean, like evil thoughts, greed, malice, jealousy, etc)
Surely you, who is supposedly 'schooling me on NT theology' understands this?
Jesus claimed possessing God's authorization to forgive sins in order to cure human diseases (which wasn't so unique, really, since even putting aside the examples of the many other charismatic Jewish Messianic claimaints who wandered about Palestine performing acts of healing, recall that the Jewish Temple priests ALSO claimed to possess God's authority to cure leprosy via forgiveness of sins; Temple priests followed an elaborate ritual delineated in the Torah, involving dipping a pigeon in the blood of another; the process has inspired Carribean voodoo witch doctors for 1,000's of years).
Please back that up with what is actually written.
Because from the examples that ARE written, read Luke 17: 26...
Chirst forgave a paralytic man his sins. The man did not get up and walk from that. But only after Christ told him to get up and walk (had the power to do so); the paralytic had already demonstrated his faith just in coming TO Christ to BE healed.
The Pharisees grumbled, 'Who is this fellow speaking blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Christ answered, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say, Your sins are forgiven', or, 'Get up and walk?' But so that YOU KNOW that the Son fo Man has authority on earth to fogive sins... " He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mate, and go home."
Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went hom praising God.
Christ did not heal by forgiveness of sins. The healing was evidence to the people that He DID have the authority to forgive sins; and also that He was who He claimed to be.
But even further, we're now seeing unmistakeable signs of TECs ignorance of Xian theology (which further erodes the claim of hearing the voice of Jesus, since you'd suspect that Jesus would understand the principles by which he claimed to heal)!
Well, Xian theology, which you have shown that you do not have a grasp upon yourself... is made up of various and multiples sources, with various and multiple schools of thought. So yeah, I FREELY admit to being ignorant of it. Why should I believe one theologian over another, or any at all? How do THEY know? I mean, the things that you are presenting above are not even backed up by what is written. So your source is not that great.
Every single incident regarding healing had to do with FAITH to BE healed, and the power that Christ had TO heal those of faith. tec
LOL! That is demonstrably WRONG. Flat-out INCORRECT... adamah
You sure about that, Adamah? What about how he could not heal or peform miracles many miracles among those with no faith?
But here are a couple of examples of faith healing:
Matthew 8, the leper:
"Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean."
'Jesus' reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leporosy.
And also in response to the centurion who asked that his servant be healed, and that Christ could do so just with a word,
""I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith... " Then 'Jesus' said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed in that very hour.
or Matt 9:22
"Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you."
Or Matt 9:20
"According to your faith will it be done to you"; and their sight was restored.
Or Mark 10: 51-52
"What do you want me to do for you?" 'Jesus' asked him.
The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."
"Go," said 'Jesus "your faith has healed you."
Are there some scriptures that you can show that demonstrates that people were healed when Christ forgave them their sins? DS211 makes a good point above as well, that Christ forgave those who sinned against him and executed him... did they all suddenly become free of illness at that time?
As for this:
Here's a page "your Lord" might wish to study, since he clearly needs to learn "his" own schtick before he goes commanding others to preach his message (and ironically, Jesus probably should have a bit less faith in himself, or his abilities, since it's unwarranted, based on the ignorance on display in your words).
All the examples that you gave are about people being healed by FAITH. So I am at a loss as to why you are arguing it when I am stating the SAME thing.
I'm going to send this, and then continue with the rest of what you have written in another post.
But your 'he healed by forgiving sins' is not backed up in what is written, and I cannot believe that you have found a 'theologian' who thinks that. I would be curious to see a link to such reasoning.
Peace,
tammy
-
nicolaou
An angel (spirit being) is not vulnerable to pathogens or genetic diseases. That vessel (spirit body) does not get sick and die, as it does not have sin and death in it. Our vessel (physical body, as it is now) does have sin and death in it... otherwise we would NOT get sick and we would not die.
Individuals who spew this type of ignorance into society deserve nothing but ridicule and derision. As a free bonus Tammy, you also have my contempt. Honestly, can you not even imagine the damage you might be causing to the minds this site has been striving to free?
Shame on you.
