god-of-the-gaps. Should we or shouldn't we fiil in the gaps with God?

by KateWild 138 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  prologos

  of course inquiry is a natural human tendency, because gaining and having knowledge is power.

  what gives scientific inquiry its basis, is, that we expect that an orderly* process and the constancy of natural laws can be found, as it would be if the thing was done by a consistant creator.

  If the whole thing would be a supernatural mess of talking snakes, water floating axes, humans, transporting mountains etc, scientific research would be futile and stymied indead.

  * even the quark, quantum, entanglement world has its order.
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  snare&racket

  Again prologos you are beyond your depth, there are more religious scientists than not (pew study 2009ish)

  You say that they were motivated by belief to do their science....soOoooo? Again another straw man, it doesnt change the data AND it is irrelevant to the issue of simply capping the quest of answers with "god did it".

  Why do you insist in bouncing off the topic and throwing in these tangent arguments with no foundation?

  Here we go with the playground names "know it all's" ... You do realise you are calling people that are defending the stance "we don't know" the very same 'know it alls' the irony is not in any way enjoyable due to its frustration. This is ignoring the unpleasant, childish nature of such comments.

  Such views on science, progress, honest appraisal of the evidence we have... is a fine example of how it can hinder the thought process... AND SERIOUSLY enough with the straw men and tangents, we are discussing the very simple issue of halting difficult yet unknown data with

  "x did it"

  with x being the deity or force or body or character of choice. Stop walking off into realms of religious scientists, it is IRRELEVANT. you just want to avoid the fact it is obviously illogical and harmful to the pursuit of that answer. A child would conclude this simple fact and have the balls to simply admit it.....
• 

  adamah

  Prologos said-

  but an ATHEIST he was not by any definition.

  Did you NOT read the link provided, or have you never read a biography of Einstein?

  Einstein confessed to being a deist; he never professed a belief in a personal God interested in the least with becoming BFF with his creations and didn't send his only begotten son, etc. I'd say that Einstien was pretty brave in his day, since the idea of a Jewish atheist was simply asking for trouble in his time he lived. HE was too smart to invite that kind of trouble on himself for no good reason (unlike Christians, atheists don't have any kind of reward for stating their faith, or lack thereof).

  It was trouble enough for him to be genetically Jewish (secular); to openly confess to being atheist would draw the wrath of the God-fearing believers (and he got plenty of hate mail, as it was, for saying he was a deist). Another famous Jewish scientist who was openly atheist was Sigmund Freud, who reserved his last book of his life for the subject "Moses, the Egyptian". He took hell for it, and no doubt Einstein saw the hatred Freud was subjected to, and bit his tongue.

  Prologos said-

  If truth would be known there are many CLOSET believers among scientists, engineers, techinicians. To admit to a belief in a creator is apostasy in the science world , leading to being marked, removal of privileges and shunning, loss of grants, tenure, income, family.

  Nonsense. Xians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc, are allowed to have any personal beliefs they like, but for reasons which this thread explains, they are expected to control their minds to know that any and all 'woo' has no place in the lab in which scientific inquiry is being conducted unless they can come up with a method to test their hypotheses.

  In fact, I remember a recent thread where Perry made that same claim of persecution against believers in science, not realizing that the example he cited of Dr Mary Schweitzer (plaentologist) torpedoes his very claim.

  
• 

  adamah

  Prologos said-

  of course inquiry is a natural human tendency, because gaining and having knowledge is power.

  And why then does the Bible, OT and NT, go out of it's way to bash mankind's quest to find the answers? It started with condemning Adam and Eveto death for eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, and God continues to teach uppity men a lesson about how they shouldn't try and "make a name for themselves" in the Tower of Babel incident; the Bible continues with many other polemics and skreeds hurling insults at those foolish men and their "flawed mortal logic" which Paul spoke against.

  Meanwhile, back on Earth in 2013, men are seeking to cure disease and God and sons are invited to help out, or even reveal any answers to find a cure.

  No help needed for leprosy, though: Jesus claimed to have cured leprosy in a handful of people in 30 CE, but the World Health Organization has treated over 20 million people for FREE with antibiotics.

  Adam
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  snare&racket

  Prologos, please dont talk about quantum physics...... :) ZIggy isnt here to help you when it gets deep, so time to leap! String theory is all about a foundation in randomness for a start......

  anyway....

  We seek 'knowledge' or data to aid our database for pattern recognition and therefore survival. The more patterns we see and connections we make the more we can predict and avoid or take advantage of events we can somewhat better predict.

  "of course inquiry is a natural human tendency, because gaining and having knowledge is power." Prologos

  Ok this annoyed me....sorry ....but this inquiry is in our biology, but it is NOT A NATURAL HUMAN TENDENCY, once more you are stating ignorant (i mean literally not in a mean way) opinion for fact, it is actually in animals all over. Do no christians own dogs? It is in all organisms that require an inquisitive mind to survive....hence they need it and hence they survive.

  Many would argue that we see patterns where there are none, for that is how our brain evolved, so just because something has no order and that may bother our pattern demanding brain, it is irrelevant to the TRUTH. This demand for pattern leads to all sorts of problems for us and other animals, hence the formation of superstitions in us and animals, and evidence for motive to early religions, look at the pidgeon box/superstition experiments of the 70's Prologos, they are very informative.

  You do realise that we are using SCIENCE and EXPERIMENTS and FACTS when we are talking to you, you are just typing the musings that go through your mind. Everything I just said is not my opinion, not my knowledge, not my research and not my invention.... Just because I know the evidence I am not a know it all. Surely that goes to the person inventing facts and hypothesis in his own mind and communicating them to others without consideration for professional scientific evidence and conclusions on these issues, long ago assessed and confirmed.

  Do you see the difference? Do you appreciate the relevance? You are attempting to answer questions science has already answered, quite some decades ago.
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  Stauros

  Huh? God of the gaps? Is this some type of new religion? Not really, I am familiar with the thinking......Seems to me that people who choose to follow this are realists and lack a bit of faith. All I need to do is look at the intelligent design behind all creation. That proves to me that their exists an immense being with the knowledge great enough to create life. Biological beings all with similar design......that is just amazing don't you think? Science is just the discovery of what GOD already knows, nothing more, nothing less.......

  Estephan
• 

  adamah

  Stauros said-

  All I need to do is look at the intelligent design behind all creation. That proves to me that their exists an immense being with the knowledge great enough to create life.

  Yet ironically, this so-called "intelligent designer" is completely ignorant of even the most-basic elements of His design?

  To take Paley's watchmaker example, let's suppose you found a watch and took it to someone who said he was a watchmaker and had lost it, but you wanted to verify he WAS the one who made it: wouldn't you expect him to KNOW what the basic elements of the watch provide for it's functionality? Wouldn't you conclude they were BSing if they DIDN'T know what, eg the mainspring does, or the hands or wrist strap are for?

  In the Bible, God fails the test, starting with Genesis.

  Shall we start a list of the top three, off the top of my head?

  1. God says the center of cognition in humans is the heart, located in the torso, and not the brain (in the head). Wrong. Any elementary school student (should) know the correct answer.

  2. God says the seat of wisdom is located in the torso (the paired kidneys), not the head (brain). Wrong. Any high school student (should) know the correct answer.

  3. God says the Earth has a bronze half-dome cover (firmament) from which the Sun, Moon, and stars are attached, as if hanging lamps. Wrong-o. Any junior high school student (should) know the correct answer.

  I could go on, as there's many more? You don't need to get into quarks, photons, etc, since God is ignorant of basic human anatomy, and failed his intro to climatology and cosmology pop quizzes.

  Adam
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  Stauros

  Adamah, Write down the scriptures that you based your conclusions on. I can then have something to ponder over......

  E.

  I could go on, as there's many more? [Are you asking this?]
• 

  snare&racket

  Stauros, assuming you are not one of the many previous posters who have changed their names due to custard bellies or that you are not a troll....

  Ignoring that you are saying complexity is without question, something requiring design... all the while requiring that your god is complex but you will doubtless claim he/she requires no designer, immediatly contradicting your only argument which itself is based in no science. A painting needs a painter and a watch needs a watchmaker is not science, its how conmen start their pitches..... Igonoring that and all the millions of bites I could take to the bait you laid out for me...... Lets keep it simple:

  In the nicest possible way, if it seems like biology on earth today seems impossible to you without a designer, you simply dont realise what we know, how much we know, how much we have done and how much we can now replicate and create ourselves. Not that long ago (4years ago) I felt the same as you and began my lectures in evolution with a mocking assurance..... It didnt last....

  again ignoring the issues of NO EVIDENCE for your god against the 150 years of evidence of biology becoming more complex by mutation and natural selection, seeing it happen in front of us, even making it happen and preventing it in some cases... Ignoring all that, as I said in the kindest tone....

  .....books.......

  I will say it one more time, it is not meant as an offence, nobody is born with information or knowledge, it has to be read, heard or seen....

  so Yes.... Those books in the library, the big boring looking ones in the 'Biology, Genetics, Abiogenesis, Physics, Organic Chemistry, Astro Physics.....' Sections have been holding the answers for you for nearly 160 years now In some cases....

  You know what makes no sense or logic to me? Big metal aeroplanes taking off a runway without falling from the sky... But then I havent read any arenautic books, so would you expect me to understand it?

  The universe beginning, the formation of matter and radiation and physical constants and laws and dust and stars and then elements and then galaxies and planets and then enviroments and then spontaneous formation of simple acids that due to charged forces interact and then a filtering of biology that increases in beneficial function at random but selected for by enviroment..... Single cells, bacteria, amoebas, mitochondria, viruses, multi cellular, sponges, algae, coral, molluscs, plants, yeasts, nematodes, arthropods, small fish .................. Humans

  (typed it up quickly so yes i know its all probably wrong order etc etc)

  if all that makes no sense Stauros, as with me and the areoplanes, can I assume you havent read any journals, papers, textbooks or learning aids on those vast topics? Unlike saying "god did it" it will require some years, some effort and the development of some skills in appraising the evidence and experiments. I am afraid it is quite difference in terms of dedication required and effort and time spent in comparison to "in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth...."

  All I can tell you is the answers are there If you want them.....

  I suggest 'Biology' by Campbell and Reece or ' The Greatest Show on Earth' by Prof R Dawkins, if unlike me and aeroplanes, you want and need to know how intelligent life came about,..

  SNARE x ;)
• 

  adamah

  Adamah, Write down the scriptures that you based your conclusions on. I can then have something to ponder over......

  There's many threads on the topic of God's ignorance of basic science on JWN, eg:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/260872/1/Yahweh-Flunked-Science#.UnmGvCTQFLc

  Use the search engine here, and look for "Aristotle heart Genesis 8:21" for more about the heart.

  Same goes for "kidneys emotions Psalms" with prior discussions explaining the origins of the Hebrew sacrificial ritual of offering animal kidneys as a 'guilt offering' (for making a poor decision).

  Same for the "firmament", as there's tons written about it (Hebrew word 'raqia', for firmament) with scholarly articles cited written on the topic.

  Adam