by THE GLADIATOR 443 Replies latest watchtower bible
( proving means presentation of facts forcing a conclusion) He was who he was.
... and factual knowledge is derived from men's writings alone about who he was decades after he supposedly
died ????
If simple words and writings alone create belief, I'll stick with practical science and evidence,
thats where my belief holds true of making the human experience better for all humanity.
Fisherman
Jesus said You will KNOW the truth he also said This means everlasting life.. taking in KNOWLEDGE of you....
No, he said This means everlasting life, their KNOWING YOU..... check your new Bible.
Coffee
FINKEL, I see that you realize that things are not what they seem.
Coffee, THANks!!!
Coffee,
Thanks, wow!! I re read what you posted. I like KNOW better than taking in Knowledge. Thanks that is a significant change!!
Fisherman:
This is a little off the specific topic you are discussing here, but, based on several comments you made about "anointed Christians," the 144,000, and the "great crowd," you might want to check out these posts later. They provide some interesting food for thought on these topics:
Take Care
I still can't believe that the generation that was alive in 1914 passed away______Fisherman
Look around and believe.
When was the last time you seen any of the annointed that was alive in 1914 out in field service
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I cannot let go of 1914. I still believe the GT will happen within 10 years or less , that is what I believe____Fisherman
Then you have been left behind by the WTS. They no longer share your beliefs
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" Before the last members of the generation that was alive in 1914 will have passed off the scene, all things will occur, including the "great tribulation" in which the present wicked world will end." _____Reasoning from the Scriptures Book page 97
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" The "generation" that was alive at the begining of fulfilment of the sign in 1914 is now well along in years. The time remaining must be very short. World conditions give every indication that this is the case."_____Reasoning from the Scriptures Book page 239
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When time ran out . They conveniently put an extention on the first generation that died
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For the life of me, I can't seem to find in the scriptures where a false prophet got a second chance
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Fisherman,
I thought that the GC was simply not anointed believers, OS.Since people die not only because of old age, not living until the end of the GT does not make one another class and neither if some died of old age. I figured they are still part of the OS=GC.I though that GC meant that when the GT actually comes, there will be survivors OS.
In 1935, it was thought that the "Great tribulation" had started in 1914 and that the "cutting short" of the days (Matthew 24:22) was a gap in the tribulation, comparable to the eye of a tornado during which the "Great Multitude" could be gathered.
In January of 1970, the "Great tribulation" was relocated in time to some indeterminate point in the future. This required a bit of explanation as to what exactly had happened in 1935 and why. The "Great crowd" teaching was salvaged via the notion that the "Great tribulation" would occur in the lifetime of those "Jonadabs" who in 1935 who were identified as the "Great multitude" (As the quote I gave previously alludes to.)
Since these people were every bit as old as the "1914 generation" this was simply a different face on the exact same teaching (i.e. The pre '95 understanding of Matthew 24:34) That naturally relegated them to the status of "Prospective" members of the "Great crowd, since as you point out above, one is not truly a member of the group unless and until they have actually survived that event.
It's true (Again as you point out above) that "Other sheep" living during the "Time of the end" sometimes die premature deaths from accidents and illness and lose the prospect of surviving the "Great tribulation" in the process. But that doesn't create a third class of Christians in JW theology, since those people were certainly prosective members of the "Great crowd" while they were alive.
The problem I've pointed out here is that you have zero prospect of surviving an event that lies outside the boundaries of a human lifespan. Could prospective members of the "Great crowd" have existed in the year 1776 for example? Of course not. That would be a horse of a different color entirely, because now we're talking about people who are not and could not have been prospective members of the "Great crowd" at all.
And that would be a third distinct prospect for Christians in JW theology, which is a problem. As proof of what I've outlined here, I'll offer these quotes from JW literature:
JW's base their salvific model on Revelation 7. John "saw" only two groups. He did not see three.
*** w92 4/15 p. 10 Citizen or Foreigner, God Welcomes You! ***
The Bible indicates that these are ‘sealed out of the sons of Israel’ and “bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.” They number 144,000. However, after giving the account of this number being sealed, John introduces a different group—“a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.”—Revelation 7:4, 9; 14:1-4.
Only those two groups render sacred service in the spiritual temple:
*** Pay Attention To Daniel’s Prophecy (1999) p. 267***
Since the first century C.E., Jehovah’s temple has actually been a spiritual one, with its holy of holies in the heavens and with a spiritual courtyard on earth, in which the anointed brothers of Jesus, the High Priest, serve. From the 1930’s onward, the “great crowd” have worshiped in association with the anointed remnant and are therefore said to serve ‘in God’s temple.’
*** w98 2/1 p. 21 The Other Sheep and the New Covenant ***
With consciences cleansed, anointed Christians render “sacred service to the living God.” And so do the great crowd. Having cleansed their consciences through “the blood of the Lamb,” they are in God’s great spiritual temple, “rendering him sacred service day and night.”—Revelation 7:14, 15.
*** w96 7/1 p. 20 The Triumph of True Worship Draws Near ***
4 As foretold, the great crowd “are worshiping [God] day and night in his temple.” (Revelation 7:15, footnote) Since they are not spiritual, priestly Israelites, John likely saw them standing in the temple in the outer courtyard of the Gentiles. (1 Peter 2:5) How glorious Jehovah’s spiritual temple has become, its precincts being filled with this large throng who, along with the remnant of spiritual Israel, are praising him!
*** w93 1/15 p. 25 Guard Against Idolatry of Every Sort ***
2 Each anointed Christian becomes “a pillar in [God’s] temple,” receiving a place in heaven. “A great crowd” of Jehovah’s other worshipers is “rendering [God] sacred service” in what was represented by the courtyard of the Gentiles at the temple rebuilt by Herod. Because of faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, they have a righteous standing that results in preservation through “the great tribulation.”—Revelation 3:12; 7:9-15.
Modern day "Other Sheep" are identical with the "Great Crowd"
*** w03 2/15 p. 19 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***
But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end.
*** w02 2/1 p. 21 Have You Received “the Spirit of the Truth”? ***
Those of the other sheep gathered in the time of the end will make up the “great crowd” destined to survive “the great tribulation,” with the prospect of living forever on a paradise earth.
*** Isaiah’s Prophecy: Light for all Mankind volume II (2001) p. 255 ***
Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the apostle John.
*** w01 5/15 p. 15 ‘Behold! The Great Crowd!’ ***
In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day “other sheep” are identical with that “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. (John 10:16)
*** w00 1/1 p. 12 “The Little One” Has Become “a Thousand” ***
Who are marked on the forehead by that “man”? “Other sheep,” ones who have the hope of living eternally on a paradise earth. (John 10:16; Psalm 37:29) In 1935 this group of “other sheep” were discerned to be the “great crowd . . . out of all nations” seen in vision by the apostle John. (Revelation 7:9-14)
*** w95 2/15 pp. 19-20 “Have No Fear, Little Flock” ***
Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935. However, the other sheep in the time of the end were prophesied to grow to be “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” Since 1935 the general gathering by Jehovah has been of this great crowd, whose hope is everlasting life on a paradise earth
*** w95 5/15 p. 20 Flashes of Light—Great and Small (Part 1) ***
So it was seen that this prophecy referred to the numberless great crowd from all nations who are now being gathered and whose hopes are earthly. They are “the sheep” of Matthew 25:31-46 and the “other sheep” of John 10:16.
*** w95 7/1 p. 15 “The Israel of God” and the “Great Crowd” ***
5 At first the position of these other sheep was not well understood, but with the passing of time, things became clearer. In 1932 anointed Christians were encouraged to urge other sheep to share in the preaching work—something many other sheep were already doing. In 1934 other sheep were encouraged to submit to water baptism. In 1935 they were identified with the “great crowd” of Revelation chapter 7.
***Revelation: Its Grand Climax At Hand! (1988) pp. 120-122***
5 The understanding of Revelation 7:9-17 was now about to burst forth in all its sparkling brilliance! (Psalm 97:11) The Watchtower magazine had repeatedly expressed the hope that a convention scheduled for May 30 to June 3, 1935, in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., would be “a real comfort and benefit” to those pictured by Jehonadab. That it proved to be! In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9
BC, Your links are very much appreciated and I will consider the information and after must repond.
Was Blind, I see what you are saying. I think you mean that the WTS no longer teaches that the generation that was alive in 1914 would be alive at the beginning of the GT although basicaly, that is what I still believe and am hanging on to. I assert that since the wts has fluctuated from the generation definition, it indiates that they just dont know. Therefore, the teaching is bursting at the seams because there is a dead line. It seems to me that they can however, officially move back on the doctrinal chessboard and maintain various positions. The hope that I hang on to nevertheless, does not violate present WTS position. But, the proplem that I m having now is that I am trying to focus on a siamese twin that began to grow in 1935 and I am having problems seeing him. Maybe he is dead or I just cant him. And that is what I am focusing on now with my conversation with DT.
