flood as defined in Gen 9 never happened
It is a given factor in the equation(prophecy).
That should raise red flags for you then. Since a global flood is impossible for numerous reasons, then that makes the entire equation (prophecy) unreliable.
The 1914 generation is still going strong 100 years later - 2014 study article.
by THE GLADIATOR 443 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jwfacts
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Finkelstein
Prophecies were created and used in ancients times to create power and relevance to specific God(s).
In are modern times prophecies are used and exploited to create power as well money in
a similar fashion for specific men living today. .......wont mention any names.
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prologos
fisherman, re: the ARCH of TITUS in the "city of the fisherman", commemorating events in Jerusalem cirka 70 Anno Deus
If an ARCHeologists presented detailed drawings for the fresco relief with the temple implements and the designs were claimed to be dated to 33 AD, those documents would be prophetic.
they most certanly would also be FAKE, be pathetic.
At least some elements of prophetic writings that date within a decade of 70 AD very probably are FAKE too.
written to fit current events, but claimed to record ealier teachings.
BSW. the inability to distinguish between past, present and future is a well recognized mental disorder.i
It allows people to believe they forsaw things yet future and coming,-- AND SINCERELY BELIEVE it.
Defend that belief to their death, and the death of others.
interpreting the elements of prophecies is elementary.
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kaik
To Bobcat, Fisherman, and others
The Olivet prophecy did not really fullfilled at 70AD. Look into that Mat 24:7
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
This cannot apply to insurgency of Judea against Roman Empire. On one side you have largest empire of the antiquity, versus rebellious province that was under Roman administration for almost century. There was no war of one kingdom against other, nor nation (diverse multinational and multicultural Roman Empire) versus Jews. 2-3 milion Jews lived outside Judea and had not whatsoever participated in insurrection of II Jewish war in 66-70AD. In that time only the prophecy could fullfill if Persia and Roman empire would fight over Judea. This was not the case, and actually under Nero, Persia had an excellent relationship with Rome and considered him as ally and gave him a control over Armenia.
Luke 21:20,21 fullfil only this portion of the Oliver discourse:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
However, further down in verse 27:
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
has not been fullfilled and does not matches with events of 70A.D. nor 1914. Mark 13:26 is trailing along the same ideas.
Either way, Jesus talked to his disciples and was pointing out to the event that woud most likely happen within their lifetime. It was his primary audience. Majority of the Jews were not even aware of his prophecy, as again, majority of them lived outside of Judea for last several hundreds years.
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Bobcat
Kaik:
The Olivet prophecy did not really fullfilled at 70AD. Look into that Mat 24:7
- For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
The context warns against taking these events as indicators of when "the end" will come. The disciples wanted to know "When?" And Jesus' initial answer is:
(Matthew 24:4-8 NWT) . . . “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. (nation, kingdoms against each other, famines, earthquakes, pestilences would occur) . . .All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
So Jesus wasn't telling the disciples to look for a "fulfillment" of these events. Rather, he was telling them that they could expect to see events like these and not to let these type events (whether witnessed first hand or heard of from others), and which were fairly common in the human experience, to suddenly get them to thinking that 'this is it,' or to believe others claims that these type events were significant in connection with when the end would come.
That is not to say that there wouldn't be an "end" for the Jewish nation/temple, or a much later "parousia" for Jesus, but those events in vv. 4-8 would not be the event(s) that would indicate the "end" had arrived. According to Jesus, verse 15 was the foretold event that they were to watch for.
Commenting on Matthew 24:4-8 (which formed the initial answer to the disciples question of, "When will these things be"), the NICNT-Matthew commentary (pp. 901-02) offers this:
- Interspersed with the answer to the question "When?" is a series of warnings against misreading the significance of historical events and so succumbing to premature eschatalogical excitement. This part of the discourse (vv. 4-13), also gives pastoral guidance for puzzeled disciples in unsettling times: they are to keep their heads when all around them are panicking or falling prey to opportunists. Verses 6-8 focus on this theme: catastrophic world events are not in themselves signs of "the end." The preceding warning in vv. 4-5 suggests that this "end" was in some way linked with messianic claimants, and the same theme will emerge more fully in vv. 23-26 with specific refeence to the period of the siege of Jerusalem. When events begin to look threatening, there will be a tendency to imagine that this is the beginning of the eschatalogical climax, the "messianic" age, and people will take advantage of that notion to press their own claims. . .
- It is remarkable how often occurrences such as those mentioned in these verses (vv. 4-8) are appealed to by those who are trying to work out a pattern for eschatalogical ["end time" - Bobcat] events, whereas in fact they are mentioned here precisely in order to discourage such speculation and to assert that the events described are not part of an eschatalogical scenario, but rather routine events within world history which must not be given more weight than they deserve. Each generation has its share of political and natural disasters, and each is tempted to think that its own experiences are somehow worse and of more ultimate significance than the sufferings of other generations, but "it is not yet the end": at the most, such events can be seen as "the beginning of labor pains," but the period from the first labor pains to childbirth may be short or long.
[End quote]
(As a side point, note also the '4 horsemen' section of Revelation 6. The 1st rider is crowned, the 2nd rider pictures war, the 3rd rider pictures famine conditions, the 4th rider picture death by war, famine, sickness, and wild beasts. But then in vv. 9-11 the executed "souls" ask 'when will justice take place.' They are not seeing the ride of the 4 horsemen as an indicator that "the end" is imminent.)
For the sake of brevity, I'll comment on Matthew 24:30/Luke 21:27 in another post.
Take care
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Bobcat
Kaik:
Another thing I noticed in your comment: You appear to be confusing the term "kingdom" with "empire." At least that is what I'm getting from your comments above. As if to say, '"kingdom rising against kingdom" could only refer to entire empires going up against each other in war.
In 1st century usage, a kingdom could be as small as a city state, ruled over by a king. A verse which many commentators feel may be behind Jesus' comment in Mt 24:6-8 is Isaiah 19:2 -
- (Isaiah 19:2) . . .And I will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. (Compare also 2 Chr 15:6; 4 Ezra 13:31)
Note that event though "kingdom against kingdom" is referred to, the context says that this is within the broader scope of "Egyptians against Egyptians." So that "kingdom against kingdom" in no way has to refer to only great empires (such as "Allied" versus "Axis" as in WWII) going against each other.
At any rate, take care.
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Bobcat
Here is a range of renderings of Matthew 24:6 compared with Matthew 24:6 NWT:
- ". . .YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. . ."
Compare the rendering "terrified" in the NWT with the range of renderings in the BibleHub link above. (The word also occurs at Mk 13:7 - the parallel to Mt 24:6; and 2 Thess 2:2) Not that "terrified" is not a possible rendering, it is. But in modern english "terrified" falls at the upper range of the word's meaning. (AMG's dictionary defines it as, "To make a clamor, tumult. Used transitively, meaning to disturb, trouble, terrify."
The vast majority of the translations cited at the link use the term "alarmed" or troubled." Jesus is saying that these wars, etc should NOT "trouble" or "alarm" one into thinking that "the end" was immiment. IMO, the use of the term "terrify" seems to give the instruction a different character, as if to say, "Yes when you see these things, that should ring an alarm in you that the end is near, but keep your heads, as opposed to being "terrified."
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kaik
Bobcat, with the first post and third post, I agree with your commentary. However, I cannot agree with the second comment. In the time of Jesus, kingdom was a Roman Empire that controlled lives of all population around the Mediterranen for centuries. The emperor was the king. Even Paul had to appeal to him, not to some local ruler controlling tribal village as was the case during the Jewish migration period. The Issiah does not apply here, as at that time Rome was small outpost, the biggest empire was Persia. 500 years later, the Rome was master. The Jewish war of 70 AD WAS a war of one province seeking to wrestle out Roman control, NOT WAR between two kingdoms. No independent kindgom of Judea existed at that time. Anyone who lived in 1st century AD around Mediterranean sea was aware that there was only one power, one ruler, one entity, one type of citizenship, one economic zone, which was indeed the mighty Roman Empire. Any tribal view of antiquated political system of the Bronze age era does not apply.
Good start for Roman History is here:
Romans controlled Judea, Rome had was not in war with another kingdom, but with a rebellious province. Not even with Jewish nation itself as 2/3 of Jews lived outside Judea. Again people attempt to overestimate the importance of Judea for the 1st century AD as it was the center of the universe. For 60 millions of people living in the Roman Empire, the center was of course Rome. For Jews in Judea, it was hostile occupational power.
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Fisherman
TD
We both know that position has since been abandoned and that this particular aspect of the supposed parallel no longer exists
Only the author knows what he means.
If you are referring to the belief inferred in the article you cited, then I agree that that that seems to be the postion now.
That depends on how you interpret the authors statement "some -if not all.." (referring to the first group.) But even with the interlapper position, the "age of understanding "belief is not invalidated -at least not yet. But, I agree that at some point, either now or "soon" the interlappers "kick in".
aspect :In terms of Fulfilment, If you mean that that element of the prophecy is no longer valid, well that depends on what rules of typology you like to use, but no matter what method you use, since the element is given, then although the interpretation of such did not pass the test, at that point, the author's (Christ's) meaning of the element must be re-examined and re-tested, assuming that other elements have been fulfilled. That is the method the wts seems to be applying, because it teaches that it is reasonable to conclude that in referrence to the 1914 "generation" (whatever generation means), the 1914 generation is what the Olivet discourse means in terms of fulfillment. The wts has not abandoned that position (yet). At some point in the future,(but not now) there is going to be a show down as you say "the wheels stop spining when they touch land", but for now everyone chooses what they want to believe, a personal conclusion. Thus, the parallel teaching did not pass away yet. Until then, you can choose to believe whatever you like, but your personal belief does not invalidate the parallel in terms of generation.
WB supports the wts arguments. He says that the wts invalidates everyone elses(religion ot beliefs). -whatever the author means. see?
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