Can this logic be refuted?

by notsurewheretogo 90 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Kensei01

    I must echo the above sentiments. As a former elder you obviously had strong beliefs prior to your 'awakening'; and it sounds like you want to be sincere in your comments to the body that you served with. However, as the others have said; utlitmately it will be a waste of time. I am a former ms who was being groomed to be an elder before the sky fell on me because of a Circus Overseer who had a personal agenda. My elders did NOTHING to help me aside from forming a judicial committee. (Pls see my intro post is you like). Thought control, fear of losing their postions, and fear of losing their family will keep them from reading anything serious from you other than looking for the "I no longer wish to be a JW" phrase. Maybe, just maybe a seed of doubt may be planted but the result to you will be terrible. I am two years into my fade now with a dear wife whom is still in. I slip and slide and give the "elduhs" nothing to hold on to. When they come around; very rarely I may add, despite great statements of how much they 'miss ' me; I am non committal. It is too bad but this is the awful truth: When it comes to this tatt we are all just our own islands of discovery, we cannot hope to really effect change based on our own statements to those still in, they must see it for themselves.

    Take care and have a great day.


  • Fernando

    Yes it can and it will.

    Their logic is simple: "we are always right no matter how wrong we are".

    They will refute your simple logic with more of theirs: "you are causing divisions, and we are going to kill (d/f) you".

    Any hope or belief that they will see the light and reform is badly misplaced, as possibly hundreds of thousands before you have found out, often far too late.

    Please don't do this to yourself and your family.

    There are better ways.

    (Why do followers of the Watchtower religion call themselves “publishers of the Good News” whilst unfamiliar with the “Good News” according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)

  • cognisonance
    I see my logic that has no answer, either Holy Spirit teaches us wrong things or the men teach us wrong's one or the that right? Is there any answer that would negate my logic?

    False Dichotomy. While they won't tell you this, it isn't an either or situation. You leave out the possibility that out of the thousands of Gods man has worshiped, none of them exist (including the Judeo-Christian god of the bible), so both the Holy Spirt and Men could also be wrong.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    This is where the whole Cognitive Dissonance Theory kicks in and logic goes out the window.

    They believe they have the truth, so much so they devoted their entire lives, families and everything to it. You come along with logic and facts that punch holes in their "truth". Because of what you say, they will experience dissonance, or unease, and they have two choices when it comes to reducing this dissonance. One would be to change their beleifs: perhaps this isn't the truth, maybe it wasn't what I thought it was. This is the effortful route. Much more likely is the easy route: disregard what you have said as apostate lies from satan and get rid of you.

    We all experienced CD - that's why we're here! But we all took the effortful route, and it was worth it.

  • Splash

    Punky totaly nailed it: "It doesn't matter. The prime directive of JWs is to protect the organisation and GB at ANY cost."

    If you don't want to get DF'd then don't try to discredit the doctrines, even if the WT has already discredited the doctrines themselves.

    You will fit the Apostate template. You will be DF'd.

    There is no logic, reasoning, scriptural proof, MIRACLE that you could do to prove your point.

    Also remember that the elders are in fear of each other. If one was to agree with you he would jeapordise himself.


  • Seraphim23

    Notsure, the JWs truth as it gets called is a way of sidestepping truth which is why they call it the truth. Logic and reason will not work because finding truth is anything but the aim and goal, and why should it be they think they have it signed and sealed. If you present your case to the elders you will be got rid of. When they move issues to the domain of conscience, it is simply a way to say it is still wrong while maintaining plausible deniability.

    That said even a broken clock is right twice a day. As regards personality being transplanted with heart transplants it has to be said, that the heart contains neurons, in fact quite a lot of them. This is not a JW question as such, even though they have raised this issue for their own reasons. If I needed a transplant and knew I would have a change of personality as a result, I would prefer that than death. Scientists tend to dismiss this idea but there are some anecdotal reports of something interesting possibly going on. I’ll leave that subject here. I hope whatever you decide to do works out for good for you and your family.

  • pixel

    Regarding the OP, sorry to say this, but you were an elder and you ask: What would they come back at me with?

    For how long you were an elder? I thought you were supposed to know what having doubts and writting letters to the WT will bring.

  • notsurewheretogo

    I'm amazed at all the responses and they all the say the same thing...which is telling.

    Remember I have done 18 months of research, read "Crisis of Conscience", "Captives to a Concept"...many Steve Hussain and Richard Dawkins books...I know, as a former elder, what elders must do...but yet again I served for many years with this body...I have a good relationship with them all...and whilst all the books and experiences label "elders" the same the way this is not true...many on the body are sincere men who like me just want to know the truth about things...

    What about playing Devil's Advocate? Like I could say that I have a friend who has this view but as for me I'm a believer etc? That way they get the point but I still pledge my loyalty to them...

    It does seem though that I wil say nothing...

    I'll need to clarify that it was 1967 that transplants were a nono and 1980 it was reversed....thanks Donny.

  • notsurewheretogo

    @pixel...I was an elder for 6 years...did a lot but never had anyone at all question the truth like the scenario I painted...I never had to refute that kind of logic and there are no guidelines on how to reply barring seeing if they have read apostate material or find out why they stopped viewing it as the truth, are they weak? Are they missing meetings etc?

    I think you will find elders do not have answers to everything, they may have different answers and the elders manual lacks a lot as it can't cover every scenario...

  • AndDontCallMeShirley

    I second all the previous comments. Logic and proof will not have any influence on the Elder/JW mind. I want to address one particular statement:

    I understand Proverbs 4:18 that they will use to say the light gets brighter

    I'm sure since you've been out for nearly a year, you've started to read scriptures in context. Real ALL of Proverbd ch.4, then see if you conclude it's talking about revealed truth ("new light"). Read the various Bible commentaries and see what their view is on Prov. ch. 4. WT has it's own spin on that verse, and it's not Biblical.

    For any JW that still hangs on to the "new light" concept, I ask them, "show me the scripture that says god teaches lies until he gets around to telling the truth." If they can show you such a scripture a JW might be able to argue the "new light" theory. But, no such scripture exists, so JWs have no basis for their interpretation, other than justification for ever-changing doctrines.

    I've seen many masterful, logical refutations of WT theology JWs have made to elders. It doesn't matter. JWs must believe the GB no matter what. There is no option other than accepting WT doctrines for a JW, no matter how baseless those doctrines are.

    Be a happy fader and leave it at that.....

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