Can this logic be refuted?

by notsurewheretogo 90 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • notsurewheretogo

    I was an elder until March 2012 until I resigned. I then stopped going to meetings in October 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that I have found to be jouful! I loved learning TTATT and sites like this and have been excellent.

    I told the elders that I needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that. It will be nearly a year soon that I faded and I expect a visit soon.

    I don't want to disassociate or be disfellowshipped for one reason. I have 3 kids and their grandparents, who are still in the truth, play an important role in their lives. My wife, who is still in but does not have great health relies on her parents to help out a lot. To lose this would be a nightmare, that is the only reason why I have not officially packed in this wacko religion.

    But I do want to explain the situation to the elders.

    I have a folder full of notes made from my research, all binded in a logical manner in various topics on things I disagree with, like blood, the cross, 1914, 607 BCE etc but it would be pointless to show this to an elder and it would lead to me being an apostate.

    I am thinking about presenting this situation and logic, see what you think. I want to say to the elders that if they can resolve this situation that I am about to mention then we can go from there.

    My logical situation is this.

    Prior to the 1960's the Governing Body said that anyone who had an organ transplant should be disfellowshipped due to the fact that it was consumption of human flesh (cannibalism) and that you absorbed the traits of the person who donated the organ.

    The fact that you were to be disfellowshipped shows that the Governing Body deemed it that this doctrine or requirement was essential to please Jehovah and have a relationship with Him.

    Sometime in the 1960's, 1962 I think it was the Govering Body changed this to say it was not a disfellowshipping matter, you did not absorb the traits of the person and it was not cannibalism. It was now a conscience matter.

    So my question to the elders that I want a satisifactory answer to is the doctrine to disfellowship based on cannablism of an organ transplant, did that have Holy Spirit approval?

    Did the Governing Body get blessed when they released that doctrine? If the elders say yes then how did the Holy Spirit get it wrong that would actually cost a Witness to lose their life if they needed an organ transplant?

    If the Holy Spirit did not bless that doctrine but later corrected the Governing Body then that means the Governing Body can release doctrines that are not blessed by Holy Spirit and can have life damaging consequences.

    If Holy Spirit got it wrong and actually taught a false doctrine then I want nothing to do with God, if Holy Spirit corrected the Govering Body then the Governing Body can release doctrines that are not blessed by Holy Spirit (avoiding use inspired) and thus I want nothing more to do with a religion that does this.


    My question to users on this forum are these:

    • Are my facts correct? (I don't have the WT references on hand but will do)
    • Can any JW or the elders refute my logic so as to continue the lie that the Governing Body are the Channel of God?
    • What would they come back at me with?

    I understand Proverbs 4:18 that they will use to say the light gets brighter but surely they can't use that in this case as the light that the Holy Spirit released initially is wrong and would have cost lives.

    I see my logic that has no answer, either Holy Spirit teaches us wrong things or the men teach us wrong's one or the that right? Is there any answer that would negate my logic?

    Because if they can't answer or resolve this situation then there is no point in going into anything else...

    Some feedback would be welcome!

    Prior to 1960's if you needed an organ tranplant to live and you wanted to be faithful to Jehovah you had to die.

    After the 1960's if you needed an organ tranplant to live and you wanted to be faithful to Jehovah you could choose to have the transplant, live and be faithful.

    The question is, the teaching prior to 1960's...who got it wrong? The men or the Holy logic dictates it doesn't matter as either answer shows you can't trust your life in this religion.

  • hotspur

    Hmmm... as I recall you're quite correct. Yes, they stated that you inherited the traits of the donor - they even went so far as to say the same applied to blood. I'm fairly certain they also quoted about a recipient receiveing an organ and taking on some the personality of the prison inmate donor. (Although, how they could know this I'm not certain as I thought all donors were anonymous). I'm fairly certain of the basic facts - it made a huge impression on me at the time!

    How they will refute all your research I can't say. Your research seems solid but you're dealing with a basically, irrational set of human beings.

    To my mind you've gone a down a path they fear to tread because you've used the 'logic' word - they don't cope well with logic!

  • punkofnice
    My question to users on this forum are these:

      Are my facts correct? (I don't have the WT references on hand but will do)

    It doesn't matter. The prime directive of JWs is to protect the organisation and GB at ANY cost. It's how their minds are wired.

      Can any JW or the elders refute my logic so as to continue the lie that the Governing Body are the Channel of God?

    Maybe they can't refute your logic but they'll not listen and try to shut you down with circular reasoning, thought stopping cliches or a JC.

      What would they come back at me with?

    A Judicial Comittee for apostacy(TM).

    Whereas your arguments are very good you forget that they won't hear what you say. All they will hear is 'apostacy(TM)'. Oh, you might plant a seed but if you don't want to be DF or forcibly DA'd then just fade away.

    Just smile and nod if they meet you and don't give anything away. If you can just DO NOT even put yourself in the awkward position of meeting with them at all. Just postpone them or forbid them to call PERIOD.

    Don't entertain their nonsense.

    Get on with your life.

    Walk away from them and if you don't want to be DF then don't argue with them.

  • Dismissing servant
    Dismissing servant

    Your facts and logics are undsiputable.

    But...those elders will just ignore it. They are are trained to ignore such questions. Maybe they will talk about new and brighter light. They will just ask you if you believe that the GB are gods channel of communication. If you are doubtful about that you will get a foot in your know what.

    Hundreds of people have tried will not work. It will only activate the "Apostate Alarm Bells" among the elders.

  • Phizzy

    They will sidestep your logic question in any way they can, and will keep on with the loyalty question, which of course is stupid, as how can you be expected to be loyal when your question is unanswered ?

    Believe me, if you wish to maintain family relationships you should not meet with the Elders on this basis. You must use a "Theocratic Warfare" type strategy.

    Claim that depression to suicidal levels afflicts you, and you could only handle encouraging words sent to you by letter, thank them for their loving concern, and say that just as soon as you are well enough you will be back with them.

    Good luck, you will need it.

  • Sapphy

    I'd be surprised if they even listened to you. All doubts and thoughtcrimes are handled like this:

    1) It is God's organisation, Jehovah is using the FDS / Governing Body

    Does this solve your doubt?



    2) Wait on Jehovah.

    Does this solve your doubt?



    Go to 1)

  • MrFreeze

    They will say "it doesn't matter because if you die in this system faithful to Jehovah's organization, then you will be resurrected."

  • nugget

    There is no logic and they will not care that you have presented a clear argument. As far as they are concerned you do not believe that the governing body is gods representative on earth automatic Df'ing.

  • Dismissing servant
    Dismissing servant

    So, Not Sure...please take care. If you want to fade you have to keep quiet. Don't debate JW's

    Take some time reading Steven Hassans books about cult mind control.

    I wish you the best

  • Vidqun

    Notsurewheretogo, welcome! I agree with Nugget. They're not interested in logic. You either toe the line or you're out.

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