by jerome 132 Replies latest watchtower bible
YK:
Where does the bible say that Satan coveted immortality?
Further, you make the following statements:
Jehovah demands that all creation acknowledge Christ as the authority in recognition of Jesus' sacrifice.
Jesus is worshipped because God commands it.
Acknowledging someone is hardly worship.
Can you be a bit more specific about how you worship Jesus?
Where are Yadirf and Mavman?It seems that YK is getting out numbered here.
Jerome, I'm actually enjoying this discussion. If you pay careful attention you will see that YK is not outnumbered, actually he is holding his own at the challenge of many.
jerome,
excellent question.
I see YK is practicing his doublespeak non-answers that try to detract from the original question.
Mav,
LOL!
TR
AWWWWW, CRAP!
You Know:
You might want to check in the 1970 revision of the NWT of which i happen to have a copy. It very clearly says in Hebrews 1:6- "And let all God's angels WORSHIP Him" I'm sure later versions fixed that problem, didn't they?
How could the WT possibly be "God-directed" and yet make such a big goof as to mistranslate this verse?
Who is your Savior You Know? Is it Jehovah or Jesus?
Isaiah 43:11 says there is no Savior but Jehovah. Titus 3:4-6 says Jesus Christ is the Savior. So if there is only one God and thats Jehovah, then theres only one Lord and thats Jesus. Isnt Jehovah the Lord? Isnt Jesus the Savior?
Watchtower theology makes no sense!
Peace-L
Jehovah is the Almighty God, there are none like him.
well let me just toss out tho scriptures i always used to answer this:
Jo10:34-5:
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
where jesus was quoting Ps82:
I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.
so what exactly is your definition of god?
mox
OUCH!
This kind of discussion always made my head hurt! LOL!
Kenneson said;
John 1:1 places the Word in the beginning. It doesn't say the Word
had a beginning. Gen. 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created..."
God was there in the beginning, but no one would suggest He had a beginning. Moreover, vs. 26 indicates that God was speaking to someone, because it says "let us make man in our image." He couldn't have been speaking to angels as some infer, because angels themselves were created and did not create. (John 1:3) Hebrews 1 and 2 prove that Jesus is not an angel, but that he is superior to them. And
1 Peter 3:22 shows that angels are subject to Jesus. So when it says
"let us make man in our image" it could only be referring to the Word
who is Jesus. There never was a time when God was without His Word.
There never was a time when God was "speechless." Gen. 1 on numerous occasions says "And God said..." Does God have a mouth and voice
to speak as some believe? Or is this an anthropomorphism? Is God's spokesman (the Word) there at the very beginning of creation or not?
If Jesus is already in the beginning then both the Father and the Son are co-creator. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God (Rev. 3:14) not that he himself was created, but rather that he is the
origin of creation. See also Col. 1:16-17
Adonai said;
Isaiah 43:10-11 emphasis on the second half:
"You are my witnesses," declares Yahweh,"and my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am Yahweh and apart from me there is no savior."
God here is clearly saying that there are NO created 'gods' period-none before nor after. Since you 'think' Jesus is created (which is contrary to scripture also) and you 'think' he is only 'a god' then exactly when was he created? Before the Father, after the Father? Neither of those two options are right according to Isaiah and what does that leave?
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Now.......Let me make it clear that I am NOT arguing scripture or being obstinate, it's just that I was SO POSITIVE in my heart for 30 years that my JW beliefs were solid, and now, with discussions like this, all I DO know is that I DON'T know much of anything!!! (My reasons for leaving the WTS were finding out I'd been duped, lied to, manipulated, and treated like crap cuz I wasn't a pioneer, I had a nonJW husband-that I married years before I became a JW-and that when I became disabled, between a wheelchair and crutches, I was ignored for six months and so forth. I never had, at the time, an issues with understanding of scripture.
Having said that, I NOW have LOTS of questions and misgivings, and will ask others when I don't understand something (like THIS topic, and I have others, LOL)
When God said to be making man in "our" image, as already posted--it couldn't be "angels" He spoke to, and the only logical explanation would have to be Jesus who was there.
So (1)if there were no other Gods before or after...and Jesus is globally referred to as "Lord and Savior"...HOW does this add up?
And if (2) God and Jesus are one and the same, as some people say, HOW could God be talking to himself and saying to make man in "OUR" image?
And if (3) God and Jesus are the same "person", and Jesus prayed to GOD...it's got to be explained somehow.
And when (4) Jesus died, (and they're, again, both the same, did God die, and commend his soul to himself???
A 30 year "bible student" has come down to asking questions that sound like they come from someone who doesn't know Jack about the bible. Discouraging, ain't it folks?
STILL looking for answers,
Annie
Back at the bottom of the class
Sunspot:
It makes more sense if you use the word "Father" instead of "God" in your comments 1 to 4.
Tying up the whole concept of God then becomes another issue.
It seems that you are looking at it from a JW perspective of God and/or the Trinity, rather than what many theologians actually describe.
Ever tried the following explanation?
Man is the top form of fleshly substance.
God is the top form of spirit substance.
There are many persons in the form of man.
There are three persons in the form of God.
Confused? You will be!
After all, it's hard to describe in physical terms that which is not physical, but rather is infinite.
Also - the more you know, the more you realise how little you know.
To Moxy:
Yes those scriptures refer to other 'gods' but what does it say about them? It is mocking the humans that have claimed godhood in their hearts-- it says 'but you will die like mere men'. It's a contrasting statement used to show how absurd it is to think of anyone as God but JEhovah/Yahweh Almighty.
To Annie:
You have valid questions but their is truth and answers to them
When God said to be making man in "our" image, as already posted--it couldn't be "angels" He spoke to, and the only logical explanation would have to be Jesus who was there.
You are correct-- as it later says its in the image of GOD (not God and angels) man is created. Angels where not created in the image of God.
So (1)if there were no other Gods before or after...and Jesus is globally referred to as "Lord and Savior"...HOW does this add up?
Exactly. Scripture says many things about the nature of God.
*Scripture says there is one and only one true God, Yahweh.
None other have been created or exist-- only 1 true God, all else are false.
*Scripture shows that there is one God that is plural in nature--
Genesis 1:26 'let US make man in OUR image...In the Image of GOD he created him.'
Genesis3:22-'The man has now become like one of US, knowing good and evil....'
Dueteronomy 6:4, the Jewish Shema said many times by Jews every where every day, 'Hear oh Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is ONE':
The word for 'ONE' in the hebrew is 'echod' which is not hebrew for the number one, there is a separate word for the number, it's hebrew for one in unity. Like the word 'Church' is one church but indicates plural members. But especially like when the Bible says The two shall become 'ONE' in marraige. Two in ONE union.
*Scripture also calls all three- Father (duh ), Jesus, and Holy Spirit-God and says that all three have all the qualities of God.
I can elaborate on this as neccessary so if Scripture says all those things:
Only 1 God, Plural Nature, Describes only those 3 as God, then you have what Christian believe:
The trinity. The trinity has existed in Christian doctrine in writting since the beggining of Christianity (long before Nicea or the Catholic Church!) so this also lends some backup evidence that the belief is accurate.
And if (2) God and Jesus are one and the same, as some people say, HOW could God be talking to himself and saying to make man in "OUR" image?God-Yahweh- in christian belief- is a trinity- tri-unity. Not three Gods, not one god with three faces, etc.. but 1 God revealed as Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. Each of these three are separate persons just like three people are separate, but the Bible says that they are one in purpose, essence, & being- they are one God. Since they are all three individual persons that have all existed eternity past and future, as they don't exist in time, they can talk to each other and do tons and tons-- even in the OT! I dont think the questions is how can they talk to eachother, it is how can they create man in BOTH their images if their images are allegedly opposite- created under-god VS. 'Almighty' Jehovah. Their images would not be the same then or compatible.
And if (3) God and Jesus are the same "person", and Jesus prayed to GOD...it's got to be explained somehow.God is three personal, as the scriptures teach. The father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are not alleged by the trinity or scripture to be the same person. See above answers
And when (4) Jesus died, (and they're, again, both the same, did God die, and commend his soul to himself???Yes, Jesus being God incarnate, died. It actually makes sense that someone much greater than just a perfect person would be neccessary for the sacrifice that Saves the WHOLE world past, present, and future from ALL sin. Just a p[erfect man wouldn't be comprable to that. But contrary to JW doctrine the sould does not cease to exist-which is a whole other line of scripture!-- so Jesus didn't cease to exist at death. He commanded his spirit to the Father, not himself. Jesus took on the nature of man to save man from our sins.
[quote]A 30 year "bible student" has come down to asking questions that sound like they come from someone who doesn't know Jack about the bible. Discouraging, ain't it folks?
STILL loking for answers,[quote]
Faith like a child?! Just kidding
Questions are what life is about and God isn't afraid of them. He gave us his word so that WE would know him and his will-- not so some GB could tell us what God wants or is
It's not discourageing-- actually it's quite encouraging! You are asking importantquestions and seem to really care about the answers. That is encourageing. I don't know what you think of my breif answers but please email me to talk further if you'd like. I was a JW that left it for the true Yahweh and can honestly say I am a follower and christian now. I left because of reading the Bible for myself. It just does not say what JWs say it does. Still looking for answers is not a bad place to be as long as you want to know them.
I understand from where you are comming from on this and would love to chat further but I do need to go for now,,,,,
God bless,
Angie
edited to change a color
Hebrews 1: 6:
NWT 1961: But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels worship him."
NWT 1984: But when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him.
The Watchtower cd-roms use the 1984 reference bible I believe.
The Scriptural cross references in the 1984 are:
(firstborn) John 1: 14; John 3: 18; Rom. 8: 29; Col. 1: 15.
(angels) De 32: 43 ftn LXX
Kingdom interlinear 1964: But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels worship him."
Literal rendering: Whenever but again he should lead in the Firstborn (one) into the being inhabited (earth), he is saying And let do obeisance toward him all angels of God.
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Without undertaking a big long research project I can't even BEGIN to have time for right now, Watchtower takes the same word (TTpoakuvnoat)and sometimes translates it as 'obeisance' and sometimes as 'worship'.
Interestingly, this scripture at Hebrews 6: 1 is the only scripture at first glance that was CHANGED from 'worship' to 'obeisance'. The other scriptures that sais 'worship' or 'obeisance' have stayed that way---at first glance.
Most of the other Bible translations I glanced through translate the word as 'worship' straight on through.
UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)
