A question about lying and the Jehovah's Witnesses

by Change Name 138 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  DATA-DOG

  The truth is, that the scriptures never support lying, ever.

  Just because the Bible is silent on a matter does not mean that approval was given. Change name, you should carefully read the account in Genesis 20 of Abraham lying about Sarah being his sister. Here is what YHWH about that evil " worldly " King Abimelech.

  Genesis 20: 4-6 " However, A·bim′e·lech had not gone near her. Hence he said: "Jehovah, will you kill a nation that is really righteous? 5 Did not he say to me, 'She is my sister'? and she-did not she too say, 'He is my brother'? In the honesty of my heart and with innocency of my hands I have done this." 6 At that the [true] God said to him in the dream: "I too have known that in the honesty of your heart you have done this, and I was also holding you back from sinning against me. That is why I did not allow you to touch her.

  Continue reading and you will see how hurt Abimelech was by the dishonesty of Abraham. Why did Abraham lie? Consider verse 11 " To this Abraham said: "It was because I said to myself, 'Doubtless there is no fear of God in this place, and they will certainly kill me because of my wife. " YHWH had promised to make a great nation from Abraham. That was not going to happen if Abraham was dead. So Abraham's fear of man caused him to assume that King Abimelech had no fear of YHWH. Lying is unscriptural.

  Watchtower 2004 6/1 Do Your Circumstances Control Your Life?

  Wait on Jehovah

  The third lesson is that instead of using unscriptural means to change our circumstances, we should wait on Jehovah. The disciple James wrote: "Let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." (James 1:4) Endurance should be allowed to have "its work complete" by our permitting a trial to run its full course without resorting to unscriptural means to bring it to a swift end. Then our faith will be tested and refined, and its sustaining power will be revealed.

  Joseph and David had this kind of endurance. They did not try to work out a solution that might incur Jehovah's displeasure. Instead, they worked to make the best of their situations. They waited on Jehovah, and what blessings they received for doing so! Jehovah used both of them to deliver and to lead his people.-Genesis 41:39-41; 45:5; 2 Samuel 5:4, 5.We too may face situations for which we could be tempted to seek unscriptural solutions. For example, are you discouraged because you have not yet found a suitable marriage mate? If so, avoid any temptation to disobey Jehovah's command to marry "only in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 7:39)

  Are you dealing with problems in your marriage? Rather than give in to the spirit of the world that promotes separation and divorce, work through the hard times together. (Malachi 2:16; Ephesians 5:21-33) Are you having difficulties caring for your family because of your economic situation? Waiting on Jehovah includes avoiding questionable or illegal activities to try to obtain money. (Psalm 37:25; Hebrews 13:18) Yes, all of us must work hard to make the best of our circumstances and put forth effort to give Jehovah something to bless. As we do so, let us be determined to wait on Jehovah for the perfect solution.-Micah 7:7.

  What would be an unscriptural solution to obtain money that would bring a swift end to your problems? Cheating on your taxes? Robbing a Bank? Lying?!! Obviously, lying is wrong. Even children understand this. Abraham should have waited on YHWH instead of letting fear of man cause him to seek an unscriptural solution to his problem. He should have " waited on Jehovah " for a " perfect solution." Instead he lied. He was forgiven, but he lied.

  Peter lied as well, denying Christ three times! He was forgiven as well. Jacob lied too. That does not mean the YHWH approves of lying.

  Some religious leaders lie when it suits them. They also cherry-pick verses from the scriptures without regard to the context of the entire account in order to support their dogmatic views.
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  2+2=5

  Here are some WTS publication quotes post 1914.

  As for the time of Christ’s second presence, Daniel’s prophecy is again the one that gives the chronology for it. (Dan. 4:16) It was figured out as pointing to A.D. 1914, and TheWatchtower called notice to the significance of 1914 in the year 1879.

  WT 1952 November 1 page 658

  a prophecy providentially caused sincere 19th-century Bible students to be in expectation. By linking the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25 with "the times of the Gentiles," they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914.

  WT 1998 September 15 page 15

  For over thirty years before that date and for half a century since, Jehovah’s witnesses have pointed to the year 1914 as the time for the end of "the appointed times of the nations" and the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule.

  WT 1966 February 15 page 103.

  4 Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the world-wide advertising of Christ’s return and his second presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah’s witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur

  WT 1954 June 15 page 370

  The above statements are misleading. The early bible students taught and believed that Christ's presence began in 1874. They definently did not anticipate, point to or preach that Jesus would return in 1914, as they were absolutely certain that Jesus had returned in 1874, and begun ruling in 1878. They taught and believed that the end times, or times of trouble begun in 1799. The expectations for 1914 were for the end of the times of trouble, and when WWI broke out they expected 1918 to spell the end. The point is 1914 was never what they expected.

  Here are some older Watchower publication quotes that prove it.

  Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present since October 1874, A.D., according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it: and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D.
  (Studies in Scriptures Vol. IV 1897 p. 621)

  Pastor Russell...believed and taught that we are living in the time of the second presence of our Lord, and that his presence dates from 1874...
  (WT December 1, 1916 p. 5998)

  The Scriptures show that the second presence (of the Lord) was due in 1874... This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874...
  (WT March 1, 1923 p. 67)

  Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt that in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus Christ is present and has been since 1874.
  (WT January 1, 1924 p. 5)

  HERE IS THE SUMMARY

  THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY make many post-1914 statements claiming that prior to 1914, JW's pointed to 1914 as the time of the second coming.

  All the pre-1914 statements claim the second coming occured in 1874

  . It was not untill the the 1930's that the first record of claiming that Jesus returned in 1914 can be found. SO.......

  JWs cannot say that they pointed to 1914 as the date for

  Christ's invisible return

  The birth of God's heavenly Kingdom

  Beggining of the time for the end

  JWs can't say that they preached the good news of that established kingdom at or before 1914. None of these would be truthful. If any of these were either stated or implied deliberately, it could be viewed as attempts by the Governing Body to create an idealized history that is more attractive to pontential bible studies today. (telling lies)

  The issue is not the abundance of false prohetic statements made by the early WT writers, or the fact that the International Bible Students have been wrong on many issues and made mistakes. JWs misrepresent their expectations for 1914. We could put it down to an accident, maybe poor research, but that is not likely the case. Surely the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their own history, they sure like making everyone aware of other religions histories.

  At the very least JWs all have to make peace with the fact that they are reading/believing/teaching something that is not true in regards to their expectations of 1914, and what that would bring. I couldn't reconcile with that fact, and thats why I don't identify myself with an organization that teaches LIES.

  Thanks for reading Change Name.

  It is people like you who defend the WTS on the internet that really help people like me wake up to the TTATT. Change Name, you do a wonderful service.

  Sorry if this post is formatted wierd I am using micro word and copy and pasted.
• 

  LisaRose

  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not an apologist. I do understand that from your viewpoint, the WTBTS is simply saying that a Christian is not lying just because he refuses to divulge information. What you have to understand is that we all, from experience, know that they use this "theocratic warfare" excuse to cover up and misrepresent. For example, when I converted to this religion, I as told Charles Russell predicted that the end times would start in 1914 and that the end would very likely come in 1975 (but it's not a prophecy, wink, wink).

  Based on the start of WW1, and other signs (also exaggerated or lied about) it seemed that he must have been directed by God. Actually, Russell thought the end of the system would come in 1914, the end, Armageddon and the return of Jesus Christ. It was only after nothing happened that they came up with the idea of "the beginning of the end" and Christ's "invisible presence". I also did not know about all the many other erroneous date predictions. Because I did not know these things (no internet yet), I was deceived into joining this religion. So, yes, this is a tough crowd, we were lied to and deceived, and we KNOW what is meant by theocratic warfare, it's not going to sell here.

  If you truly are a study, you would be foolish not to research this organization more before you contemplate joining. Trust us, you will save yourself from making a very serious mistake.
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  DATA-DOG

  Sorry for all the bold type. I don't know what caused that.

  Lisarose makes a great point: " If you truly are a study, you would be foolish not to research this organization more before you contemplate joining. Trust us, you will save yourself from making a very serious mistake. "

  Some of us had no choice, we were born-in. By the time we learned about TTATT, we had lives that the WTBTS will gladly destroy if we rock the boat. Most here love the individual dubs. We just wish the hypocrites and lawyers running the show would butt out of our lives.
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  Sayswho

  Not telling the Whole truth is called deception. Plain and simple you are misleading --- lying.. If you know you are withholding information that is morally wrong...let alone biblically wrong.

  sw
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  new22day

  Isn't it ironic that an org. that claims it's "the Truth" has written instructions on how/why it's OK to lie? Why would Jehovah need to instruct an org. to lie about his holy guidance when leading people to 'the truth' (esp. when these lies are so easily verifiable, and would turn any thinking person right off)? Under this train of thought, wouldn't Jesus have been justified using "Theocratic Warfare" to save his skin?
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  mP

  The more self righteous anybody claims to be, the more of the opposite they actually are. Think North Korea, Iran, Watchtower...they are all the same, liars, theives etc.
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  Change Name

  Hi there all

  I love it when people throw so many arguements at people. Maybe this is why people leave this forum. No structure, just bashing?

  Josie Jones - Why would you want to pm me? I do not understand. Do you confuse people on purpose? Anyways, discrediting people is easy. Those being discredited have to have enough humility to know when they have been discredited.

  Hi there Billy - I know a Bethelite too. Not very well but he like it there.  I take it you did not like it and now are telling everybody how evil a place it is?

  To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally. You can claim all you want that a lie is a lie is a lie. You can blame the Jehovah's Witnesses for their speaking about the end times and being wrong about their expectations.

  Did the 1st century Christians lie that Jesus was going to return in their lifetime. Did Jesus lie about his traveling to the festival of the tabernacles. These were untruths but were not lies. You may not understand the difference. You may refuse to even consider it. I bet you are butt hurt about something else and refuse to listen to reason.

  Hi again Wasblind - So far I have been given by the JW's all the information I need in order to be baptized. There is nothing they have left out.

  Josie Jones - Okay. According to you Jesus is a liar (John 7:1-13)

  Hi again Mr Freeze - I see the distinction you are making. To you, withholding information and omission of facts the same as lying. Did Abraham lie or did he just omit that his sister was also his wife?

  One thing is that the people is the organization. There is not "the organization" and "the people". The "organization" is Christianity and it is made up of people.

  I am making sure that this is it. I have questions that I will get answered in my due time.

  Hi again OUTLAW - Evidently you must understand your tactics are rather drull and not doing the trick. Why bother to answer my questions of you are going to call me names? It appears as if you have not thought this subject out. Are you one of those people who were DF'ed because you were caught doing something bad and then became hostile about it? Are you blindly accepting everything you read [without meditating on it] against the Jehovah's Witnesses?

  Hi again Wasblind - One thing I have noticed is that former JW's choose their beliefs over their families. Why did you choose your belief over that of your family? Why is your beliefs better than Christianity? This is what you are telling your family. Your beliefs are better than Christianity. It was your choice, not your family, to leave Christianity.

  Hi again Billy - From what I understand, they misunderstood what a Biblical generation is. Like I mentioned above, according to your definition of what a lie is, Jesus, the 1st century Christians and many other people mentioned in the Bible are liars.

  At one time I thought the USA was the best country in the world. I believed this with a passion. I saluted the flag, said the pledge and was proud my father and grandfather was in the service. As I grew older, I talked to people in different parts of the world who disagreed with me. They believed their country was better than mine. Was I a liar?

  Hi breakfast - Thank you for your answer. I do not have your persective in this matter. I have read much of the older publications and they do not have much good to say about the UN or the League of Nations. Could it be that their perspective about the UN was incomplete and they made some false assumptions? Even imperfect humans can make some major mistakes. Why would you call that lying?

  Hi Justita Themis - Are you saying that there is a double standard when it comes to lying?

  Hi again Satanus - Is old light the same as lying? Why do you believe this? The 1st century Christians corrected old light in regards to the Gentiles. Was the old light a lie and they could have associated with the Gentiles all along?

  Hi there Billy - You are reading into my answers and putting your own spin to them. You were taught well Obi Wan. Yes, I should be ashamed of myself to get to the bottom of this lying thing. Almost there and you are doing your best to shove my nose in spit.

  Hi again Dismissing Servant - Yes. I know that former Jehovah's Witnesses are very touchy. They will grab any pebble of "truth" in order to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses. They want to belong since they left the Jehovah's Witnesses. They flock here and places like this. I do not blame them for being unhappy. In my limited experience, they made a bad choice. I will get death threats. I will get a fist shook at me. Before 9/11 I was talking to Muslims on Yahoo Groups and got all sort of threats made against me. I may be even banned from this forum before everything is said and done.

  Hi there Finkelstein - I have noticed that much of what is said to be exposing is rather misleading information. At least to me it is.

  I guess you have seen the article here . Have you read it or have you just cast it aside without reading it as more lies and innuendo presenting by the evil corperation called the Watchtower?

  Hi again JWfacts - oh my! You got me! I pasted something I saw on Yahoo Answers and wanted to get a perspective on why people disregard what the JWs teach about lying.

  Hi again all - I have taken too much time away from my family today answering all your accusations and questions. It looks like I can post only 10 replies a day. I will post as time allows.

   
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  Finkelstein

  What is misleading in that article concerning the WTS being and applying as an NGO ...

  General Assembly Resolution 13

  This is a resolution from back in 1946 concerning the purpose and activities of the DPI. The resolution states:

  “General Assembly Resolution 13( I ). Organization of the Secretariat (The DPI) ...”

  “2. The activities of the Department of Public Information should be so organized and directed as to promote to the greatest possible extent an informed understanding of the work and purposes of the United Nations among the peoples of the world. To this end the Department should primarily assist and rely upon the co-operation of the established governmental and non-governmental agencies of information to provide the public with information about the United Nations...”

  As shown by the resolution the purpose of the DPI is to: “promote to the greatest possible extent an informed understanding of the work and purposes of the United Nations among the peoples of the world.” They are to use NGOs to “to provide the public with information about the United Nations”.

  Thats it. It is not a resolution about NGOs supporting the charter of the UN. It is not a resolution about NGOs supporting the goals of the UN. There is not even a resolution that NGOs must share the ideals of the UN charter.And there is certainly no resolution that NGOs are part of the UN or the UN system. The purpose of DPI-associated NGOs is merely to “to provide the public with information about the United Nations”.
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  Satanus

  'Is old light the same as lying? Why do you believe this? The 1st century Christians corrected old light in regards to the Gentiles. Was the old light a lie and they could have associated with the Gentiles all along?'

  Of course. Tribalism is an adolescent phase.

  S