Believers, do you believe in evolution?

by everchangingworld 159 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    I don't understand this statement. You said that at some point, humans received a spirit. Were they at some point of perfection? How did they reach such a point without a spirit? And then they fell? In what way? What have humans done to change their evolution so that they are not fully human in the way that God 'created' them to be---through evolution? Break this down. How does it work?

    Perfect? nope I don't think so, that they "fell" shows they weren't perfect.

    I am using fall in the theological "fall from grace" sense.

    Some view that, humans being apart from God, hinders their ability to "go beyond" what they are now, or at least they have to go at a much slower pace. Some view angels as simply a race of beings created before humans that have evolved to that point where they are, and that this will happen to Us as well.

    If Jesus' resurrected body, which was a human body resurrected, is any indication, those bodies will be far beyond anything we can conceive now.

    As Christ said, "we will be like the angels in heaven".

    Pretty big "If's" of course.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    An exerpt from WLC website in regards to evolution:

    It’s helpful to remind ourselves that the word “evolution” is an accordion-word that can be expanded or contracted to suit the occasion. The evolutionary biologist Francisco Ayala points out that the word “evolution” can be used to mean at least three different things:

    1. The process of change and diversification of living things over time. It is in this sense that biologists say that evolution is a fact. But obviously this fact, so stated, is innocuous and would not be disputed even by the most fundamentalist Young Earth Creationist.

    2. Reconstruction of evolutionary history, showing how various lineages branched off from one another on the universal tree of life.

    3. The mechanisms which account for evolutionary change. Darwin appealed to natural selection operating on random variations in living things in order to explain the adaptedness of organisms to their environment. With the development of modern genetics, genetic mutations came to supplement the Darwinian mechanism of natural selection by supplying an explanation for the variations on which natural selection works. Accordingly, we can call this hypothesis “neo-Darwinism.”

    Now evolution in the senses of (2) and (3) is not an established fact, despite what is said and believed in popular culture. According to Ayala, “The second and third issues—seeking to ascertain evolutionary history as well as to explain how and why evolution takes place—are matters of active scientific investigation. Some conclusions are well-established. Many matters are less certain, others are conjectural, and still others. . . remain largely unknown” (Darwin and Intelligent Design). With respect to (2) Ayala emphasizes, “Unfortunately, there is a lot, lot, lot to be discovered still. To reconstruct evolutionary history, we have to know how the mechanisms operate in detail, and we have only the vaguest idea of how they operate at the genetic level, how genetic change relates to development and to function. . . . I am implying that what would be discovered would be not only details, but some major principles” (Where Darwin Meets the Bible). As for (3), he cautions, “The mechanisms accounting for these changes are still undergoing investigation. . . . The evolution of organisms is universally accepted by biological scientists, while the mechanisms of evolution are still actively investigated and are the subject of debate among scientists”(“The Evolution of Life: An Overview”).

    Once you realize that the word “evolution” can be used to refer to any of these three aspects, you begin to understand how misleading it can be when it is asserted that evolution is an established, universally recognized fact.

    Indeed, there are very good grounds for scepticism about the neo-Darwinian mechanisms behind evolutionary change. The adequacy of these mechanisms is today being sharply challenged by some of the top evolutionary biologists. In fact, I was intrigued recently to learn that Ayala has apparently since given up on the adequacy of the neo-Darwinian mechanisms. Lyn Margulis, one of the so-called Altenburg 16, a group of evolutionary biologists who met in 2008 at a conference in Altenburg, Austria, to explore the mechanisms behind evolutionary change, reported, “At that meeting [Francisco] Ayala agreed with me when I stated that this doctrinaire neo-Darwinism is dead. He was a practitioner of neo-Darwinism, but advances in molecular genetics, evolution, ecology, biochemistry, and other news had led him to agree that neo-Darwinism’s now dead” (Suzan Mazur, The Altenberg 16 [Berkeley: North Atlantic, 2010], p. 285).

    Now it needs to be clearly understood that Ayala is not about to embrace some sort of creationism. Rather additional natural mechanisms will be sought to supplement genetic mutation and natural selection. These are already being suggested in the scientific literature. I have every expectation that during the course of this century the neo-Darwinian mechanisms, which have been long challenged by creationists of various stripes, will come to be recognized as inadequate, and new mechanisms will be recognized. The irony will then be that the community of evolutionary biologists, rather than admitting that the criticisms of the creationists were justified, will say, “Oh, well, we knew all along that the neo-Darwinian mechanisms were inadequate!”--this, despite the public posturing that goes on now in the name of neo-Darwinism!

    So while evolution in an innocuous sense is well-established, belief in evolution in senses (2) and (3) is not universal among scientists, and the dominance of neo-Darwinism heretofore is due to the constraints of methodological naturalism and the want of a better naturalistic alternative.

  • cofty
    cofty

    This concept of humans being nothing more than spirits trapped in physical bodies seems to me to be demeaning to humanity.

    It is deeply rooted in Greek mythology.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Once you realize that the word “evolution” can be used to refer to any of these three aspects, you begin to understand how misleading it can be when it is asserted that evolution is an established, universally recognized fact.

    This is deliberately misleading. Evolution is not simply about change unless you qualify that to say that every living thing on planet earth - plant and animal - evolved from a common ancestor over billions of years. This is a fact - beyond all reasonable dispute.

    Of course there is much to be learned about the relative importance of the mechanisms of evolution - that's a given.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    This concept of humans being nothing more than spirits trapped in physical bodies seems to me to be demeaning to humanity.
    It is deeply rooted in Greek mythology.

    Indeed and understandably so because of the heavy hellenistic influence at the time of writing of what would eventually be the NT.

    The difference being that CHristian view of the resurrection of the body VS the Hellenistic view of the soul being free from the body forever.

    It is only the current state of the human body that is "inferiour" ( if that is the right word).

    At issue isn't really the body even but how corrupted we have made it with our insistence to be apart from God and "be Gods ourselves" the paradox being that IF we were WITH God we would indeed be like Gods.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Our bodies are not "corrupted" - this is a demeaning concept that has led to the self-loathing that characterises religion in general and christianity in particular.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter
    “Oh, well, we knew all along that the neo-Darwinian mechanisms were inadequate!”--this, despite the public posturing that goes on now in the name of neo-Darwinism!

    Not sure why you make this conclusion, as scientists adjust their views as knowledge is gained. The entire point of the scientific method is to prove a theory false. But regardless of what attitude will be displayed, it will not change the facts, so it is irrelevant. And even if we have some things wrong, it in no way supports creationism, which has been completely falsified.

    Now, about this fall. What fall? How did it happen? Did one day, ALL humans with a spirit fall? I'm asking for details, and you are not addressing it directly. I'm asking you to reconstruct it. You sound pretty sure, so there must be details.

    As to angels evolving. Is there a fossil record of this process? What is the evidence? Just where did the idea come from? Is there support beyond philosophizing? We can make any story up we want, but if we want it to be taken seriously, then more is needed.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Our bodies are not "corrupted" - this is a demeaning concept that has led to the self-loathing that characterises religion in general and christianity in particular.

    Have you seen some peoples bodies ???

    On a serious note:

    I don't know anything about this "self-loathing" of the body that you are referring to, that the bible comments on the weakness of the flesh is true, but the context is one that very few will disgaree: When we know what is right but do what is wrong, that is what the weakness of the flesh is.

    Paul mentions that are bodies are corruptable because we are not one with God and as such, sin can corrupt Us, but that when we are one with God we will put on "incorruptability". Agian corruption being equalled with sin that corrupts our bodies, it is always soemthing that WE do to our bodies, not that our bodies are.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Not sure why you make this conclusion, as scientists adjust their views as knowledge is gained. The entire point of the scientific method is to prove a theory false. But regardless of what attitude will be displayed, it will not change the facts, so it is irrelevant. And even if we have some things wrong, it in no way supports creationism, which has been completely falsified.

    Not my conclusion, it was from the article.

    Now, about this fall. What fall? How did it happen? Did one day, ALL humans with a spirit fall? I'm asking for details, and you are not addressing it directly. I'm asking you to reconstruct it. You sound pretty sure, so there must be details.
    As to angels evolving. Is there a fossil record of this process? What is the evidence? Just where did the idea come from? Is there support beyond philosophizing? We can make any story up we want, but if we want it to be taken seriously, then more is needed.

    If you would like a recommendation of a good theology book, since that is what we are discussing when talking about the fall, angels and so forth, I can give you a few.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    When we know what is right but do what is wrong, that is what the weakness of the flesh is.

    No. That's weakness of the mind---where the decisions are being made.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit