Why are atheists so intent on scorning "believers"?

by Chariklo 553 Replies latest jw friends

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    An interesting series of responses.

    To address a later one first, Joe Grundy, you wrote

    I am sad (as a quasi-outsider) that we have this sort of question posed as a thread title with its assumptions. It's crap. By all means start a thread and ask for information, opinions, (civilised) argument if you wish. There are plenty of sites available for rabid arguments, and we've had our fair share of nutters and wind-up merchants here in my time. It would be a shame if this site was degenerated - I hope that it will remain a welcoming site for those JWs taking a tentative first step into the real world looking for answers.

    There was very definite purpose in the title of this thread, Joe, and I thought about if for a long time before posting. If you visit the board regularly then you must have noticed that atheists gather around certain posts and threads and even posters, making comments about believers. My point is , firstly, that it is putting people into a group and calling them "believers" that could lead to the site...to use your word...degenerating. As I said in my opening post, in my 15 years of internet experience, I haven't met this before.

    Joe, I absoluutely agree. I too hope that it will remain a welcoming site for those ex JW's emerging into the world and for those who have become entangled with the Watctower either through relationships or because of the continuing door-to-door programme that the Witnesses use. All these groups can be desperate when they come here, and their faith may be in crisis, or damaged, or destroyed as part of that process.

    I started the thread because of my own direct first hand experience of this behaviour, and because I observed others suffering from it. I'm puzzled that more people haven't become aware of it, though I suspect many have and are keeping quiet, unsurprisingly, because there has been an element of intimidation and ostracism, not severe enough to warrant action but bad enough to make individuals feel uncomfortable.

    Nomad Soul

    You must be new to the internet.

    I wasn't here before 1995. Were you?

    J Hofer

    you are wrong, chariklo. atheists do NOT believe. it's not "believing that god doesn't exist", it's "not believing that god exists". so no, atheists are not believers. and yes, believers are just that, believers of any faith. and while believers may not be generally stupid or ignorant, it sometimes is a little strange that they don't stick to their intellectual honesty when it comes to their faith.

    to "deny the belief in god" is certainly not the definition of atheist. it's simply not believing in god/gods. most believers are atheists too when it comes to other deities. atheists simply don't believe in yet another one, that's all.

    Actually, with respect and sorry to disagree with you, but you are not correct, Mr Hofer. Unless we have here yet another difference in language usage between the UK (where I am) and the US (if you are there.) Still, even so, I think it unlikely.

    An atheist believes that God does not exist. he believes it definitely. He has considered the issue. He is absolutely, positively certain that there is no god, and he is likely to say so. Richard Dawkins is a case in point and a number of posters on here have made theor atheism, of that nature, perfectly plain.

    If he does not believe that God exists, he may or may not be an atheist. if it is a definite considered belief to the point of certainty, then he is an atheist and his belief is as outlined above. if, on the other hand, he does not believe that god exists but it is not a strongly held position, then he is an agnostic. He does not know, which is what agnosticism means. He simply doesn't know whetrher God exists or not. he may be very uncertain, he may be consciously open-minded, he may say in conversation "I'm really not at all sure that there is a god.". Such a person is agnostic. Not an atheist.

    Christ Alone

    The term "some sort of atheist" doesn't make sense. There is a single definition of atheist. One that denies the belief in God. If you are "some sort" of atheist, most likely you are an agnostic.

    Absolutely, Christ Alone. I completely agree with you.

    ElderE, I'm really sorry to have to tell you this but you are not an atheist. You believe in Thor. and you have never, in anything I've read from you, and I've read almost everything there is, been one of those using the term "believer" in this way. I too understand that much of this behaviour comes from reaction to the appalling experience within the Watchtower. I'm not judging. my hope was to draw attention to it so that it might happen less often, once people are aware of it. because it's actually not very nice, and makes people feel uncomfortable, which isn't kind.

    Oh! and Sab, I agree! Cofty is most definitely not hateful. Cofty is a good bloke, and a friend.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    LOL

    Charged, Tried, and Convicted. All in the OP title. All by the open minded one.

    This was fun.

    Let's do some more.

    Why are atheists so intent on eating their own children?

    Why are atheists so intent on emptying elderly people's retirement?

    Why are atheists so intent on leaving the cap off the toothpaste?

    Why are atheists so intent on kicking puppies?

    Why can't atheists just STFU and respect all ideas and beliefs?

    So now we must not only respect people, but we must respect their ideas. Okay.

    I hate racism. To my core. Am I required to respect the beliefs of a committed racist? I guess so.

    I hate creationism, particularly when dressed up as Intelligent Design. To my core. Am I now required to respect the beliefs of a committed creationist?

    I hate homphobia. To my core. Am I now required to respect the ideas of a committed homophobe?

    You know, the issue here is that believers want their beliefs to be respected. Whatever those beliefs are. I can respect the good a person does. I can respect their intelligence. I can respect their talents, skills, and abilities. But now I have to respect their ideas, which I think are nonsense. And if I don't, this will follow"

    Why are atheists so intent on scorning 'believers'?

    Well, if you put an idea out there, it is going to be attacked. The problem is that many believers cannot separate themselves from their beliefs, so an attack on their beliefs is an attack on them. Attack my atheism all you want! LOL. I don't care. It amuses me. So that is often not enough, because it doesn't get the proper reaction, so sometimes those attacks turn personal. I know---this never happens. LOL

    Every single one of us has some ideas that we scorn. Conspiracy threads pop up here all the time, and I watch both believers and nonbelievers scorn those ideas. Should we respect an idea if we find it hostile, far-fetched, and even crazy? I guess so, or we will see this:

    Why are people so intent on scorning 'cospiracy theorists'.

    or

    Why are people so intent on scorning 'racists'.

    This has gone so far beyond ridiculous. I've never called anyone a name, never visciously made things up about them, never got overly personal with them. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of that. Sometimes the line is blurry, no doubt. When I go after the way a person reasons on something---their system, so to speak, that can feel personal. But is it?

    So much of this has become so silly and thin skinned, and HOSTILE (oops, no, this thread had no hostility, now did it?) that it just makes me tired.

    When will it stop? When visions, voices, superiority, prophecy, superstition are all accepted with a nod and a smile, even if they should happen to conflict.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Hi, New Chapter!

    The problem is that many believers cannot separate themselves from their beliefs, so an attack on their beliefs is an attack on them.

    Wow. That's a generalisation if ever I saw one!

    The problem is that many believers cannot separate themselves from their beliefs, so an attack on their beliefs is an attack on them.

    You may be right, in your experience. In my lifelong experience...in a fairly long life... of people you call "believers", I have not yet met anyone like that.

    oops, no, this thread had no hostility, now did it?

    Not from me. If you perceived it that way, I am sorry.

    When will it stop? When visions, voices, superiority, prophecy, superstition are all accepted with a nod and a smile, even if they should happen to conflict.

    I don't understand. Conflict with what?

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Wow. That's a generalisation if ever I saw one!

    Yes, I suppose my qualifier (many) is a generalization.

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    NC, do you realize that you perpetuate a stereotype of believers? It seems like almost every argument you make can be turned around on you. You have admitted serveral times on this forum that you CANNOT respect belief in God and that you have to find something else to respect about the person. The simple answer to that is that many believers will NOT respect YOU becaue of that stance. You think that's not an even trade, but it IS because some cannot separate their belief from their person. Just as a Catholic priest says he cannot fathom an existence without God. If you call that guy's God fake he will take offense even if he doesn't outwardly show it. Basically, you would be asking for him to NOT show his true feelings because they are invalid. That will only provoke more aggression or just make him throw his hands up and walk away. If you could somehow develop an iota of respect for belief in God AND stay true to your own beliefs you could have more positive relationships in your life. Many believers, such as myself, respect non belief, we just don't stand down to it when challenged.

    -Sab

  • cofty
    cofty
    An atheist believes that God does not exist. he believes it definitely. He has considered the issue. He is absolutely, positively certain that there is no god, and he is likely to say so. Richard Dawkins is a case in point and a number of posters on here have made theor atheism, of that nature, perfectly plain.

    Do you realise Dawkins rates himself 6 out of 7 on a scale of unbelief - belief?

  • ziddina
    ziddina
    "First of all, they illogically and conveniently forget that they, too, are "believers". They passionately believe that there is no god. ..." Chariklo, OP

    Aaaaaarrrrrggghhhh....

    See, now that is EXACTLY the sort of mangled, mixed-up attitude that "believers" come up with, that causes friction with atheists...

    Honey, I don't "BELIEVE" in atheism. I KNOW that the bible "god" isn't real - neither are any of the OTHER tens of thousands of gods NOR goddesses that humanity has worshipped, down through the ages...

    And I KNOW that ALL of these deities AREN'T real, based on RESEARCH. There's no "belief" involved.

    On the other hand, since nearly all believers are basing THEIR opinions on "faith", they almost invariably PROJECT their attitudes onto atheists and accuse the atheists of that which THEY THEMSELVES do - namely, "believe" based on "faith".

    Until you understand the difference between "belief based on faith" and "KNOWLEDGE BASED ON RESEARCH " , you won't understand the atheist mind-set.

    Zid - a proud NeoPolyTheist Atheist... Oh, and a She-Devil, too...

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    more athiest bashing I see....

    Why are atheists so intent on leaving the lid off the toothpaste? I didn't know this was a problem...I only used to leave the lid off when I was younger, and I was a believer then...ROFL.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo

    Zid

    neither are any of the OTHER tens of thousands of gods NOR goddesses that humanity has worshipped, down through the ages...

    And I KNOW that ALL of these deities AREN'T real, based on RESEARCH. There's no "belief" involved.

    No, quite the opposite. You don't KNOW all that. You believe it.

    If you have indeed achieved research that proves it, do say, because you'll be the first person in the world and you can make a fortune writing it all up.

    Knowledge involves hard fact.

    ...I'm signing off for the night now.

    Sab, very well said, that's a great piece of writing!

    still thinking

    more athiest bashing I see..

    We must be looking at different threads. None here.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    why are believers so intent on scorning "atheists"?

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