to "deny the belief in god" is certainly not the definition of atheist. it's simply not believing in god/gods. most believers are atheists too when it comes to other deities. atheists simply don't believe in yet another one, that's all.
Why are atheists so intent on scorning "believers"?
by Chariklo 553 Replies latest jw friends
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cofty
CA - most of us are sick and tired of refuting that point.
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Joe Grundy
I may regret posting this (I tend to stay away from this sort of stuff) but here goes.
I never was a dub, and I am an atheist. I don't scorn anyone. If by 'believers' you mean 'believers in a religion or a deity/deities' I don't scorn them either. I respect their beliefs and their right to hold them, whatever those beliefs may be - they are all equally valid, whether it's a modern cult (like JWs) or an older more traditional religion such as a Thai prostitute lighting incense to Buddha on her way to work. I've known both and many others.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but not everyone is entitled to their own facts.
But, as someone with an enquiring mind, I am entitled to require anyone who wishes to foist their beliefs on me to justify them. That's my right, I think. AND, if their particular belief system imposes on people's lives in a way which causes damage, hurt and pain (and WTBTS surely does) and they seek to impose it on others I am even more entitled to challenge them and ask them to justify it. The more damage, the more impact, the more justification is required. Same for WTBTS as the Spanish Inquisition.
If those proselytising for their religion hold themselves out as capable of being intellectually able to persuade converts (as JW publishers do) I am entitled to challenge and question. That is not scorn. If they seek out the vulnerable (as JWs do) I am entitled to challenge them on behalf of their vulnerable targets.
To bring it to the nitty-gritty: I don't scorn JWs. I condemn the GB and the senior echelons because they are well aware what they're doing. For the average JW, I am sad (to say I feel pity would be condescending). For the religion itself, well it's just another relatively small doomsday cult and is of no consequence except for the damage it does to its adherents.
This site has evolved into a support forum. It has tremendous resources for those (like me) seeking information. Some seekers really need support provided in a neutral way, with clear, honest information - and that's the best form of support for someone who is challenging the beliefs fed to them under duress.
It is, of course, an open internet forum and anyone can post. I am sad (as a quasi-outsider) that we have this sort of question posed as a thread title with its assumptions. It's crap. By all means start a thread and ask for information, opinions, (civilised) argument if you wish. There are plenty of sites available for rabid arguments, and we've had our fair share of nutters and wind-up merchants here in my time. It would be a shame if this site was degenerated - I hope that it will remain a welcoming site for those JWs taking a tentative first step into the real world looking for answers.
Just my view, and I appreciate that as a never was dub I am a bit of an outsider.
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Christ Alone
Do you mean "couldn't care less" Nomad? Or could you really care less than you do?
CA - most of us are sick and tired of refuting that point.
What point is that? That an atheist is simply one that denies a belief in God? What's another definition?
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Christ Alone
But, as someone with an enquiring mind, I am entitled to require anyone who wishes to foist their beliefs on me to justify them. That's my right, I think. AND, if their particular belief system imposes on people's lives in a way which causes damage, hurt and pain (and WTBTS surely does) and they seek to impose it on others I am even more entitled to challenge them and ask them to justify it. The more damage, the more impact, the more justification is required. Same for WTBTS as the Spanish Inquisition.
Very well said.
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NomadSoul
Well I COULD care less by not posting back. So in a sense I could care less.
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Joe Grundy
Just for clarification, I am 'atheist' in that I do not believe in the existence of any gods or supernatural beings. Simple as that.
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cofty
CA - Here is something I posted a few days ago in a conversation with Outlaw....
No atheist can prove god does not exist. I have never come across an atheist who thinks otherwise. You are arguing against a strawman.
Strictly speaking the word "proof" only belongs in the maths class, in every other sphere of life we have to make the effort to weigh up the evidence.
In UK law courts juries are asked to reach a verdict of guilty if the case for the prosecution is "proven beyond reasonable doubt".
Once they have thoroughly considered all the DNA evidence, the forensics, the witness testimony, the CCTV, the telephone records and computer data etc etc they have to make a decision. If they consider the evidence to be incontravertible they will pass a guilty verdict.
It is not their "best guess". Its not a matter of faith or personal preference or belief. At the same time they understand that if new evidence should come to light in the future then the verdict may change.
In the case against god I am thoroughly convinced of my conclusion and satisfied that I have more information to consider than I could possibly relate. I have listened thoughtfully to every possible defence and found it all to be vacuous wishful thinking. I even lived as an evangelical christian for 9 years and experienced all the existential exploits they ultimately depend on.
If new evidence ever comes to light I will be delighted to consider it seriously. I dont have "faith" that my conclusion is correct, it is simply an intellectual decison based on the fact
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DATA-DOG
You can be passionate without being insulting. If you can't defend your beliefs, whatever they may be, without resorting to either name calling or inferring that someone is a moron then YOU are a poor communicator. It is very easy to pick up on someones tone, even in an e-mail. There are some here with the tendency to be rude. I include both believers and atheists in that comment. If you really want to teach someone then do not belittle them.
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Qcmbr
Believers internalise their belief such that their personality is altered and their behaviour changes. When a believer makes a statemrnt re belief they are staking far more than simple truth or falsehood, they post themselves and a rejection or critique of those beliefs becomes a personal rejection. Likewise agreement or praise becomes personal validation. Non believers , by definition, cannot be altered by a belief and are much freerer to look at an opinion objectively. When a direct insult is goven to a non-believer (you are a <x> and your mother smells of <y>) they will react in the same affronted manner as the believer whose cherished belief in <z> just got dismantled in public.
As a former believer I understand what believing means and now as an atheist I dont care any less for people I care more. I care enough to invest mysf saying sometime harsh critical statements that by virtue of being anti belief will wound. The wound is never the desire. The desire is to expose why faith and beloef is detrimental to them and to all. I started this forum as a defender of god and I was shown ttrmendous respect by posters willing to walk me through my pwn personal faith crisis.
apols for all spelling garbage, yhis forum, my phpne,my fat fingers and the rocking train do not mix well