Believing in God - Challenge

by jgnat 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jgnat

  Point 2
  KS:
  You have picked up the theme of other posters that people hang on to religion, the concept of an afterlife and an overseeing God as a source of comfort in an uncertain world. I had suggested that there is a hint of condescension in this view, and you confirm this by comparing it to the justification that addicts resort to.
  
  The thing is, I have not used this argument. So go ahead and burn that strawman.

  

  Though I might point out that lots of other irrational activity is justified the same way. Like romantic love.
  
  I have been talking about the possibility that believing, conversing with, an imitating an all-loving, all-knowing God might push us to be better than we might be otherwise.
  
  From a rational, evolutionary point of view, we might have a God-spot that allows us to tap into the inexpressible.
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  jgnat

  KS, I am ashamed of you. By now you must know that I read broadly. Or at least watch Ted regularly.

  New Chapter, you misunderstood me. I believe that the process of evolution can explain all the beauty and complexity of what makes human...at our best.

  I agree that the concept of "survival of the fittest" is a gross over-simplification.

  Someone who has not studied the complexities and motives of human interaction, might make some gross oversimplifications for their own morality. They may come to believe, for instance, that supporting the poor and the infirm is counter-productive to our evolutionary future. After all, it is only rational.

  Hence, the studies of altruism and how it helps the human race as a whole.
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  still thinking

  I have been talking about the possibility that believing, conversing with, an imitating an all-loving, all-knowing God might push us to be better than we might be otherwise.

  I suppose this could be possible for some...however, I have found the opposite to be true. Since I stopped believing in a god my life has taken on a much deeper meaning. I have found a genuine love for mankind, a genuine love for myself and I want to push myself to be a better human being more than I could have ever imagined while I still believed in a god.

  God limited me. And placed boundaries on me as a human. I feel so much more connected to myself, others, the earth, the universe than I ever did when I believed in a god. Beleif in a god devalued my life.
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  still thinking

  Someone who has not studied the complexities and motives of human interaction, might make some gross oversimplifications for their own morality. They may come to believe, for instance, that supporting the poor and the infirm is counter-productive to our evolutionary future. After all, it is only rational.

  Some may feel like this god or no god, because that is how they want to think. Just look at JW's and their charity work...does their god inspire them to help others? Maybe for some individuals within the belief system. But that is because they personally believe in helping others. Nothing to do with their god.
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  jgnat

  Consider, still thinking, that the Witness god is simplistic. "Worship me by going door-to-door and I will remove from you all traces of free will and cage you in a paradise to live forever where all your carnal desires are taken care of. And we'll take care of those wrinkles while we are at it."

  Simplistic god, stunted behavior.

  Imagine a God bigger than ourselves, with finer motives. What might the result be?

  I suggest also that a simplistic view of evolution might result in similar stunted thinking. Like eugenics and other atrocities.
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  still thinking

  I suggest also that a simplistic view of evolution might result in similar stunted thinking

  I agree, thats why I used them as an example. God or no god we are limited by our own understandings of life. So what difference does it make adding a god to the equation? Is god just there for people who cannot or do not want to understand life as it presents itself? What purpose does it have? If we can lead a fullfilling life without it.
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  jgnat

  I won't argue with your choice, still thinking. Much of this discussion is a result of my own divided thinking; the rationalist ragingly active and the inexpressed creative given full rein. Every once in a while I get that gut feeling, that tickle that despite all obvious evidence, calls for attention. It's not rational but I know I will have lost something significant if I don't heed it. I'll let you know in a month or so if it was right.
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  still thinking

  That was a valid question Jgnat? What difference does a god make in your life? I was not trying to argue. Non belief in a god has improved my life. How does belief in a god improve or alter your life?

  I suppose I need to clarify with you if you believe there is an afterlife or not. If you don't believe in an afterlife surely belief in a god must have some positive impact in your life to justify continued belief, otherwise what is the point?
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  tec

  Seems to me that the question might need two parts. Answers might be different, depending upon which part.

  Is there benefit to believing in a God who does not exist?

  Is there benefit to believing in a God who does exist?

  Believing in a God who does not exist can still bring hope and/or peace to those who have little to none. Strength as well. It might also slow humanity's progress if it is false, because it does not deal with anything real. Both are true, I think.

  Believing in a God who does exist does not even have to have a benefit... it is simply following reality, and I think following the truth beats following a falsehood. But the benefits would also be hope and peace (which just happen to be real in this case, rather than illusion). Strength as well. Truth... and acknowledging truth of more than just what we can see, touch, taste, smell, hear with our physical senses would allow us to reach for our full potention of more, rather than limit ourselves without need.

  The above are just a couple things off the top of my head. For further conversation on benefits, though, you would have to get into some specifics on a creator, and I do not think you had that in mind for this thread.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  NewChapter

  NC, any recommendations for books for jgnat on evo/NS?

  Well, Jgnat has said that she has read a great deal, and understands. I believe her. For myself, it DID take a college course in Anthropology to more fully grasp it. LOL

  We can say that an ignorant person could conclude that they don't need to take care of the sick and elderly among us, because that is outside the natural selection rational---AND YET, we DO take care of those which means it in many ways must fit in really nice.

  But we can make a counter argument to that. A person who believes in a god, may also conclude it is perfectly rational to kill an American diplomat because of some youtube movie they heard about but did not see.

  We are talking about character here. Religion does not give a person better character, and natural selection does not give a person worse character.

  Humans will be humans no matter what the context.