by jgnat 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Perhaps, jam, the problem comes from treating the bible as a cohesive whole. The same bible that records the carving out of a nation by the sword, also has Micah and the Sermon on the Mount.
Again, my gut tells me that the recent eruption of violence has less to do with religion than to a reaction to years of suppression.
I think for some it may be helpful, I feel if one psyche is used to beleif then beleif may give them comfort and be a helpful copeing device. But it also has its downside, it could make us a slave to a religion, more prone towards wishful thinking, not takinging apropriate action when needed because we have faith and left the matter in God" hands.
I think the good that beleif will do is about equal to the bad that belief will do to a person. I personally have not such beleif, my feeling on the subject are,, perhaps we are all the samething,"consciousness" and the individuality we experience is caused by a know&knower entanglement so maybe this all incompassing consciousness can be called god depending on your preference or objection to the word god.I have nothing like a belief in a moody type of judgemental personality watching my every move, just consciousness with no one to worship or apease and make happy to get a reward.
That being said, I think that that the reason I don't try to debate people who still have belief because they may be a person that will do better with it.
I think it better to keep making judgements not based on fear of a deity but more on objective facts not subjective,, I know I can't do this flawlessly but I feel it better to do so.
jgnat- this is a really good topic, but I cannot offer much. I will agree the " inherant lack of justice " in the world is one of the things that prompted me to search for God.
I went through a helpful phase of reading eastern thoughts- mostly Tao and Zen. The greatest thing about reading eastern thought is that you can get the spiritual, soulful, karma stuff and you can dismiss the need to believe any of the doctrine. It creeps me out a bit when authors mention "his holiness" or give creedance to the sayings of someone because they are a monk or an imam or yoga master or something like that.
But to stick to your point, it seems pretty clear that humans often "reach[es] beyond our base natures, to reach for that which is bigger than ourselves." Despite my belief that the gods of men are not there, I believe searching for the connection all humans have to each other is very beneficial. I think that this life we live right now is all that we get, but it can be so meaningful and powerful and leave its own footprint after we are gone.
Interesting topic, but not sure I have anything to add, as perhaps one's perspective on JWN can be skewed by all the examples of child abuse, control, etc... So I'm going to free-associate here.... :)
I think most JWs are actually RETARDED in their spiritual growth, since they are told they possess all the answers, when they do not. As OTWO has done, there's many other belief systems out there to explore, and I think it's not so much about FINDING an answer, but SEARCHING for the answer while gradually becoming aware that there's NOT an answer to be found: the search IS the answer.
I actually feel I learned much more about religion when being apart (separate) from them, which also means you don't get the social interactions which ARE a long benefit of belonging to a group (I think of NC's relating of the kindness and support extended by the Unitarians in her area when she needed it). But groupthink is NOT always a good thing: think JWs who need blood transfusions!
I think people make spirituality WAY too complicated, with spirits, superconsciousness, etc: "karma" in a sense is all there is, in that what "energy" (which isn't real, just your general vibe) you put out there is what comes back (the Beatles said it as "the love you make is the love you receive", Jesus quoted the Golden Rule). Some people put out energy which is fun to be around, and others are toxic...
When you understand such truths (which are as close to "universal truths" as we get), I don't see a need to bog it down with more baggage, including concepts of Gods, angels, after-life, etc.
Is it possible that there is a part of us that reaches beyond our base natures, to reach for that which is bigger than ourselves?
Of course that is possible. That is why we are trying to explore our universe. Man seems to have the desire to know himself. Where he came from and where he might be going.
Religion feeds that need on a superficial level. It TELLS us where we came from ie. created. It tells us where we are going to end up. Problem solved. No more thinking required. It has filled the need for people who do not want to think for themselves and who want to be told what to think.
Religion suited me fine while I wanted the saftey of 'knowing everything'. I could feel smug in my 'knowledge'. I could feel special. (for the wrong reasons).
It gave me comfort and reassurance that everything would be ok. It took away the uncertainty in life.
But it wasn't real. I was the one really comforting myself and reassuring myself but not taking the credit. Therefore leaving me feeling vulnerable and unaware that I had this capability...reinforcing the need for a god.
Believing in a god relieves us of the responsibility to own who we really are and be ok with it. It is a cover, a disguise and a camouflage for reality. If you don't like reality...god is for YOU.
Jgnat, Believing in God is helpfulfor those who fear death. To believe otherwise, to believe that this life is all there, is for some, I believe that they can't handle it emotionally and this can lead to depression and all kinds of other ailments for such ones.
People need something beyond this life to make it through their lives. Believing in some kind of supernatural power is their answer, without proof, it doesn't matter, with the belief it is soothing to them when sickness or death is approaching.
I use to feel that way, as a Catholic and a Jehovah's Witness. Now I have come to terms with not believing in a supernatural being from any of the many religious teachings and or cultures that teach and believe that their God is the true one.
I have accepted that this life is all there is. I am still open to any evidence that might prove otherwise in the future.
I do not find any fault with believers, I understand it. I was one.
Blueblades/Mall Cop
Is it possible that there is a part of us that reaches beyond our base natures, to reach for that which is bigger than ourselves?
I'd say there seems to be a psych need to know our place, within society and our place in the "big picture". We are social animals at a base level. Animals seem to both instintively know and learn their social status; fear of predators and knowing what to eat is innate, pecking order requires some challenge and contest. Perhaps taking on the god/father archetype is nothing more than challenging fate for dominance of our own destiny. Perhaps not.
However, not knowing if dolphins think about water, air and things beyond fish, I'd say most if not all of us confront the god question at some point or other. Where did we come from? What is my purpose? Is there something beyond this life? I think any sentient and rational being would have to derive an answer one way or another. It seems there is little question to the diversity of the answers and all are true it seems. Our nature is not absolute or universal, thus it may follow that neither are our beliefs and "truths".
Is believing in god helpful? If it gives someone peace, how could it not be? Of this there is ample testimony.
It can also be said that not believing in god is helpful and there is much evidence of this.
Is believing in god more helpful (or harmful) than not believing?
It's a divide by zero question, undefinable and has no answer ;)
It all depends what kind of God you believe in, if you believe in a God like the JW's god you believe he will solve the problems men face, and you will sit back all your life and contribute nothing to solving those problems and nothing to society, how is that "helpful" ?
If you believe in a creator you may then well believe that certain areas of knowledge or activity belong to him, so research in certain areas of science are wrong, cloning or GM foods etc, and then science is held back, how is that "helpful "?
To believe in what is not real may suit some people, but it is a bit like trusting in a payout from a Bernie Madoff type scheme that is already broke, it aint gonna happen.
What a fine thread to wake up to! My first impressions is that so many of you have spoken straight from the (heart/mind), defences down. The tone is introspective, kind. I am also grateful that you all kept within the limits I put on this discussion. I’d like to think that the care you’ve taken with these posts speaks to the way I approach the board (reaping the fruit I’ve sown, perhaps).
Cold reason could take a good, hard bite out of some of the ideas presented, but I will work to keep the same tone.
Some general impressions I’ve pulled from the comments:
