Believing in God - Challenge

by jgnat 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  frankiespeakin

  Jnat,

  God is a term that many people still apply excusively to YHWH or something very similar. I tend to think of what the Mythology about god and gods that come from collective psyche of humans is really pionting to and I think it is what Jung called the "Self" it is the center of and also entire psyche Atman/Brahman type of thing.

  So maybe you have a desire to give artistic expression that comes from your center the "Self" that could be a driving force, hard to say.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-realization

  Psycho-analysis

  Though Sigmund Freud was skeptical of religion and esotericism, his theories have had a lasting influence on western thought and self-understanding. His notion of repressed memories, though based on false assumptions, has become part of western mainstream thinking. [10]

  Freud's ideas were further developed by his students and neo-psycho-analyststs. Especially Carl Jung, Erik Erikson and Winnicott have been important in the western understanding of the self. But also other alternatives have been developed.

  Jung developed the notion of individuation, the lifelong process in which the center of psychological life shifts from the ego to the self.

  Erikson described human development throughout the life-span in his theory of psychosocial development.

  Winnicott developed the notion of the true self.

  Roberto Assagioli developed his approach of Psychosynthesis, an original approach to psychology.

  [edit] Humanistic psychology

  Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers, leaders in the Humanistic Psychology movement, developed the concept of self-actualization.

  Based on Maslow, the most common meaning given to self-realization is that of psychological growth. It represents the awakening and manifestation of latent potentialities of the human being -for example, ethical, esthetic, and religious experiences and activities. [11]
• 

  slimboyfat

  jgnat remember Narkissos? He was a big fan of Derrida.

  Foucault once accused Derrida (during a period when they had fallen out) of practising terroristic obscurantism, which some might say the pot calling the kettle black. I take him as saying that the complexity of the world out there cannot be captured in language, and that slippages in meaning and absenses always haunt every text. Some might say he sets out to prove this in his own work which is formidably impenetrable - as if to say I told you so.

  I love the response he made to the question of whether he was an atheist, which seems to prompt a full blown identity crisis.

  You Tube video called: Jacques Derrida on Atheism and Belief
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  frankiespeakin

  Jnat,

  Do you do any mandala type of art work?

  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-healing-arts/201003/cool-art-therapy-intervention-6-mandala-drawing
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  King Solomon

  If you succeeded in expressing the inexpressible, jgnat, then it would instantly shift into the domain of the expressed. Right? ;)

  I wrote a paper in a film analysis course in undergrad on the topic of the use of silence in Akira Kurosawa's film, "Rashomon". I opened with a quote (can't remember who said it) which set the tone for the paper: "Next to silence, that which comes closest to expressing the inexpressible is music."

  The overlooked element of the statement is that it's placing silence at the top, hence why most effective composers focus not just on the notes, but the DENSITY of the notes and the RESTS, the spaces or gaps where music is not being played, the absense of sound, silence.

  Akira used silence to amplify the horror, the stark reality of the visuals, where cheapening the scene with a musical effect (think Hitchcockian dissonant string sections) would not carry the same effect, but only weaken it.
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  jgnat

  I listened to the youtube, SBF. If I could hazard a guess, he's saying a believer will always have moments of athiesm. That's where faith comes in. For me, carrying a mind similarly divided, that offers some comfort.

  I note that he is not fast to label things. To label too fast, to try and nail the big thoughts down, carries a big risk. Of missing the big answers.

  Frankiespeakin, I once ended up in a mandala class by accident. They had misspelled it as a Mandela class. You can imagine my initial confusion. During the exercise I kept breaking outside the circle, as a circle is static and the eye stops moving. I painted a great wave breaking out. The floaty instructor mentioned that she could always spot the artists in the class; they would do what I was doing.

  The local Cree spiritualism uses a circle.

  
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  jgnat

  In contrast, the light is lighter and the dark most velvety. Shakespeare got this. There is comedy in his best tragedy. I would agree that music speaks to that inexpressible side.

  And here I've built an unrelentingly dense thread. Thanks for joining the party.
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  soft+gentle

  thanks for having us to your party jgnat

  that youtube really made me laugh slimboyfat because Derrida sounded quite indignant that anyone would presume to say absolutely that they are this or that - thanks for sharing
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  jgnat

  I'm off on walkabout for a few days. Have fun without me.
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  still thinking

  After reading further through this thread...it seems to me that if we don't believe in a god people like to say it is because we a limiting our idea of a god to Yaweh...based on their opinion of what they THINK their god MAY be. According to yet another god concept. But I see nothing more than a god of the gaps. We can't explain something....god did it. We don't like the other gods...create our own. We FEEL there is something more...create it to fit the god we think SHOULD exist to explain it all.

  It is only deep and meaningful to the extent that it is as creative as art and music itself. We create that too.

  Humanity has been creating gods to do exactly what this thread is trying to acheive. A god that works for us. A god we can understand, a god that explains the unknown. When it comes to gods we are no more advanced than a cave man.

  S&G...it was a good example because the world is constantly being conned by religious ideas. Where do you think most of humanity get the idea of god from in the first place. We just take the concept and create our own intense feelings and beliefs around it. These feelings and beliefs confirm for us that our god is real and so goes the cycle. God is real because I feel him in my life...I feel him in my life because god is real...and around and around it goes. Since we have better access to information these days we now have the choice of any combination of god we choose from the many types available. A bit of this, a pinch of that. voila!...a new god!

  When you no longer believe god is real that 'feeling' goes away. Now some believers will dismiss that as a non believer cutting off feelings. I see it as cause and effect. Don't believe, don't get the emotion attached to the beleif. Just like the lottery winner example. While she believed she felt the emotions, they were REAL. Stop believing, emotion went away. I am sure though if she chose to keep believing that she had won that lottery she would continue to feel that emotion, but maybe with some doubt. Not unlike may believers. Becuase they know there is nothing really to support their belief other than wanting to believe it. Surely if a god was real it would take more than lack of belief for him to disappear. Most other real things don't become not real because we stop believing in them. I may not believe its raining outside, that does not stop the rain. And I can still see it. Reality is not effected by belief the way a god is. God is a concept that needs to be maintained or it ceases to exist.
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  King Solomon

  ST said:

  Humanity has been creating gods to do exactly what this thread is trying to acheive. A god that works for us. A god we can understand, a god that explains the unknown. When it comes to gods we are no more advanced than a cave man.

  Yeah, that reminds me of something I wanted to say about the attaining of that which is greater than us, transcending our limits.

  Humans do MANY things to become larger than themselves, even to achieve immortality thru their works. The ancient Greeks coined the term genius, which is a little different from the modern meaning, but originally connoted the idea of that drive in us which could acheive immortality by being remembered by name. The Bible reflects this, in passages where the the only thing worse than death itself was to have one's name be forgotten, and hence why eunuchs (who could have no offspring) were promised by YHWH to have their names carried on in stone, as if to not be forgotten. Along those lines, that was likely the affront of men in the Tower of Babel: seeking to make a name for themselves, rather than through God.

  My main problem with believing in God as a means of transcendence of oneself is that it's rather self-centered, and not doing anything beyond simply generating an internal sense of wellness by feeling you're connected to God. (Been there, done it....) So it's a great "high" for the individual, but aside from recharging one's spiritual batteries, what gets accomplished? Not much.

  As the Bible says, faith without works is dead, and JWs would tell you the greatest calling is to hand out literature: do it alot, and you're accomplishing more. Sorry, I don't see it, as they're accomplishing nothing except self-medicating with internally-generated serotonin, which people can get from OTHER actually-productive activities (beach clean-ups, Habitat for Humanity, heck, even exercise).