Just for soft+gentle
Murmuration from Islands & Rivers on Vimeo.
I think this is the best where internet-connectedness can lead us.
Believing in God - Challenge
by jgnat 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
NewChapter
Is there a benefit to believing in a god? Is there benefit in believing anything that is untrue? I suppose we can always find situations when that is so. They are limited and temporary though. Perhaps in moments of crisis, lying about what lays on the other side could give a person the strength needed to make it through--but eventually they will make it through and learn the truth, but may be grateful they had something to hang onto even if it was fiction. Do they want to live their entire lives that way?
Many things highlighted here as beneficial work just as well without a god.
Social structures---we don't have to credit a god with these structures, it was the people that made them, and since there is no god, no help was needed. How empowering it is to realize that we are accepting, charitable and helpful all on our own.
Judgement? The idea that belief in a god keeps people from doing bad things? Well it really hasn't, but let's take it seriously for a minute. When I was a child, I was told I had to be good or Santa Claus wouldn't bring me gifts. Aside from being the ultimate blackmail, I did try to listen and be good. It was a kid thing, but would it be viewed as good and healthy if I, as an adult, was concerned that Santa was watching my every move, and therefore I must be good? I don't think that would be healthy at all. If by the time I am adult, I have not developed enough character to consider my decisions and consequences, I don't think throwing a god in the mix is going to change anything.
So we are completely capable of doing both good and bad, constructing a society, reaching out beyond ourselves without god belief.
However, if we continue to chase these nonexistent beings, then we have lowered our guard and our critical thinking. In doing so, we leave ourselves vulnerable to the bad things that come with gods. If we are unwilling to even question their existence, we may be unwilling to question how they are being defined by others. And if we are unwilling to question that, and our faith and loyalty is unshakeable in spite of evidence, then we won't need a lot of evidence or thought to storm embassies.
NC
-
jgnat
Is anything that cannot be dealt with in the rational realm untrue?
I do not believe one follows the other. The rational mind can spot a false conclusion, which must be dropped. Perhaps even the evidence of my eyes must deconstruct to the most obvious conclusion. The glory of this sunrise is in the range of wavelengths of 390 to 750 nanometers.
Does anything exist outside the rational? The artist tells me there is. I cannot possibly deconstruct all that I see.
With the link below I am repeating myself from other threads, I know. This discussion is bringing together the many threads I've been following over the months.
For New Chapter:
http://www.ted.com/talks/viktor_frankl_youth_in_search_of_meaning.html
-
soft+gentle
thanks jgnat - murmuration is awsome
-
breakfast of champions
Like this thread. Especially enjoyed your "mind-picture" of the fundamentalist/science meld.
Beleif in a Deist god, the Beginning of Everything - I don't really see how that is particularly harmful.
Fundamentalistic belief - been there, done that. Not good.
I really just don't want to waste any more time in my life believing things that are false or pretty much unverifiable. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that whizzes by in life that you must accept (at least temporarily) just to get by. But actually searching, or groping after a god, or hoping in an afterlife, to me, is a huge waste of my resources.
-
NewChapter
Nice video, Jgnat. I like how he says we overestimate people and they become better. I think some of this rather than being what actually happens (which that could be part of it) is also an attitude.
So let's look at god belief in this context. We are 'base" as was used here, deeply flawed, in need of salvation and perfecting. That on our own, we are unsalvageable. But once we make good with this god, we are righteous and pure in some way---and those who don't?
A search for meaning is necessary for us all. Some of us start that journey with the notion that we are fallen creations with tendencies to do only bad, therefore need to reach outside ourselves to find any kind of balance in the evil/good scheme. That can only be gained from an external being.
Some of us start out just recognizing that we are humans, with the capacity to do good, bad, neutral, but we still manage to do a lot of really great things. We are not inherently bad or flawed, we just are, and we can begin our journey there. Instead of grieving for what never WAS, taking a great deal of joy in where we have come and where we are going.
Who will need to over-correct more?
-
talesin
Perhaps 'the rational' as we see it, is limited by our abilities of perception. I really think you would enjoy a movie I watched recently. It's called "What the Bleep Do we know?", and is an exploration of quantum physics, spirituality, and how we are so limited by perception. Can we create our own reality? hmm
:)
-
rip van winkle
Talesin- I perceive you are HERE?!!!! What the BLEEP do I know?
~~~~~~
Sorry, jgnat.
-
jgnat
NC, I’ve carefully avoided the Christian/Bible concept in this discussion. When I spoke of a base nature, I included characteristics we’ve inherited from our evolutionary past such as love, parenthood, relationships, a sense of justice and so on.
This is exclusive of an idea that we need salvation from our “imperfect” selves.
I wonder at the dawn of orthodox Christianity if this might have been borrowed from the Athenians, this idea that this earthly, imperfect realm is not our true home and that perfection lies somewhere beyond. This led to all sorts of aberration, in my opinion, such as debasement of our own bodies, a denial and turning away from all things natural.
Also special to Christianity is the concept if one does not accept their God, one is damned.
Take the Christian concepts out of the equation, and I still think Frankl was on to something.
I feel the power of what it means to live large. Those who have limited evolutionary moralism to satisfying the simplest demands (survival of the fittest) may be missing the big point, and risk falling lower than themselves._____
Talesin, don't buy in to the whole "Law of Attraction" thing. Watching nature kills that idea.
_____
Interruptions welcomed, rip.
-
King Solomon
knowsnothing said:
So, we end up with you can believe what ever you want to, so long as you are balanced.
Believing in God - QED
Well, practically speaking, sure, that's true (and I'd go even further and say you don't even have to "be balanced" about it, since people are free to be as unbalanced and whacky about their religious beliefs as they wanna be!).
But rationally, that stance doesn't hold water. It WOULD be true if the rational position were to believe in things for which no evidence exists, but it's not, hence that's not a rational stance. Even though the probability for the choice: "God Exists" vs "God Doesn't Exist" SEEM to be 0.5/0.5 flip-of-a-coin, it's not. The odds are nowhere close to 50:50.
When I see comments like, "God helps people make it thru their lives" or "if it makes them happy, how could it be bad?" the first thing that comes to MY mind is recognizing that's the SAME RATIONALE used by substance abusers to defend their drug-of-choice. And much like with crystal meth (which makes people VERY HAPPY temporarily, by all accounts), the way it can be dangerous and harmful to the user is in the SIDE-EFFECTS that potentially can result when we use any coping strategies which depend on an altered mental state that is either chemically-modified via exogenous sources (i.e. pharmacological agents) or endogenous (fantasies and delusions, although the content of those thoughts is dependent on others, eg GB, hence ultimately exogenous).
Interesting bit there is that science HAS found evidence of the power of thoughts, and that certain personality traits are related to the balance of certain neurotransmitters found in (and activity in certain areas of) the brain. There IS power in meditation and prayer, wherein certain brain-wave activity can be detected, and changes in neurotransmitters can be measured, just as if an mild psychoactive substance was injected. But the flip-side is, the same experience can be artifically created by taking a drug. That's not news to anyone: that's WHY people use drugs! But so much for anything special about any "spiritual experience", as it is a chemically-mediated process (and that's what the brain researcher pointed out during her stroke: what makes someone feel so warm and happyful is NOT necessarily "good for you", just as the stroke that triggered her experience certainly wasn't a "healthy" condition).
Interesting bit about the unknown unknowns.
My thought is, why do so many people worry about the unknowable unknowns, when the same people haven't even learned about the 'KNOWN knowns'? The existence of God issue, as it stands today, is simply a waste of time/brain cycles since there is no direct evidence to validate such a belief (and I'd hold that there is TONS of indirect evidence sufficient to conclude that the Abrahamic God doesn't exist, if not any other deistic/theistic God; but that's OT here).
But back to the ignorance of known knowns:
Think of a discoverer who sets off to explore distant unknown lands. Hopefully he's knowledgable of the principles needed by explorers (reading/writing maps, charting/navigation, languages, biology, etc) before setting off to discover the new, because how would be know what IS new if they don't know what IS known?
There's always some who want to wax poetic about distant lands they've never discovered, as if bards, when they've never even left their own living room. For them, hypotheses are simply rampant speculation, PURE guess-work, since the hypotheses aren't being driven by an understanding of the unanswered questions that actually exist in a given field, but their own fantasy of what they IMAGINE them to be. There is no replacement for experience.
jgnat said:
Does anything exist outside the rational? The artist tells me there is. I cannot possibly deconstruct all that I see.
Interesting, as the artist in me (as a composer/musician) says there is not (see below).
But even if there IS, why waste brain cells on what is not perceivable or knowable? I don't deny that some things COULD exist, since ANYTHING is possible (eg tea pot in orbit). But I worry about the unknowns when they're needed, but NOT before (unless people like worrying about things that they cannot prove, where the only effect it has on them is only their BELIEF in it). In that regard, God belief is a proxy that can be filled with MANY other activities with much less of a "tax" on the believer (as mentioned by NC).
Speaking of deconstructing art, I've had many examples where I composed something, and then went to analyze what I wrote and realized I just re-wrote another piece. :) In fact, most creative artists admit that what they are doing is simply derivative of other's work, only they've managed to hide their influences better than most. To a listening public who is unaware of their sources, it seems new and fresh. Heck, that's the whole point of discussing the origins of the Flood account (Epic of Gilgamesh).
Of course, it's often said that all the great stories that are told in Western society owe something to the Greek Tragedies (which were based on oral traditions). I tend to agree that there's very little that counts as truly original, but owns something due to the non-divine influences of others. The talent is perhaps adding a fresh perspective to the content that none others have added, but "original"? Hmmm....
Mozart was considered "divinely-inspired" and gifted by God by some of his contemporaries, but his fellow competitor Moliere pointed to Mozart's "Worldly" immorality as proof that God must not exist, since he blessed Mozart with such great gifts, but not the devout and pious Moliere! I guess it could be said Mozart "stumbled" Moliere, lol!
Phizzy said:
Ah, to be a Militant Atheist, how do I get to qualify ?
Militant RATIONALIST, please. NC is taking applications, and the line forms to the right over there....