Killing Ananias and Sapphira

by irondork 313 Replies latest watchtower bible

Ucantnome

And every sect and flavor of Christianity claims that scripture for themselves in that they apply it to other Christians. It's kind of one of my favorites,
And I had a topic
Do you have a favourite scripture?
I don't think you posted on it.
Ucantnome

So it's good to know that Christians don't run around only telling nonbelievers that they are going to Hell, or being judged, or whatever the flavor, but that scripture allows them to tell each other.
I don't understand you here.
tec

Indeed. And every sect and flavor of Christianity claims that scripture for themselves in that they apply it to other Christians. It's kind of one of my favorites, in fact, because it makes it possible for people who are culturally very similiar, religiously similiar, and right next door to each other to claim the other isn't really a Christian. And they don't hesistate to do so! That scripture is what guaranteed that Christians would not have peace between themselves, and humans often don't rise above expectations.
Every sect and flavor does not actually. Some do, absolutely, maybe even the majority. But not all are so judgmental.
It really feeds the desire to be self-righteous, to point, to judge, to be superior, to be right---all those things that validate some people.
It is meant for self-reflection... not pointing fingers. Some people just love to point those fingers. Helps so that they don't have to SELF examine, because we all fall short. That isn't just lip-service or false humility. That just IS. And once a person sees that about themselves (not the false humility - where someone states that but doesn't really think they fall too short), then it becomes so much harder to point fingers at someone else. Someone who is pointing fingers at someone else, probably hasn't done too much looking in the mirror.
So it's good to know that Christians don't run around only telling nonbelievers that they are going to Hell, or being judged, or whatever the flavor, but that scripture allows them to tell each other.
Crappy, unjustified, and judgmental, either way.
Peace,
tammy
NewChapter

So it's good to know that Christians don't run around only telling nonbelievers that they are going to Hell, or being judged, or whatever the flavor, but that scripture allows them to tell each other.
I don't understand you here.
I am saying that that scripture allows you to look at other Christians and judge them. So it is not only limited to nonchristians, or nonbelievers, but to any Christian that does not see things the way you do. Not everyone saying lord, lord---you know the rest.
THAT scripture really explains the very fragmented Christian world. That is how it is set up. There is no expectation of unity, when so many false Christians will abound. But trust me, everyone that uses that scripture on another Christian is pretty sure that they are good with Christ, and the other Christian is the one who will be told, "I never knew you!"
Now perhaps the most liberal Christian will never use this scripture in that way, but those of us on the outside watch as you just point fingers at each other and claim, "They aren't REALLY Christians, because. . .".
NC
Ucantnome

I am saying that that scripture allows you to look at other Christians and judge them.
Thank you for explaining it more.
I don't think it really allows us to judge others but we have to judge ourselves and what our conscience will allow us to do or not do. There was also the parable of the wheat and the weeds and none of us want to be found to be in the weed bunch so we examine ourselves and our beliefs.
THAT scripture really explains the very fragmented Christian world.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think it is that fragmented. Yes there are different churches but I think they believe the Good News.
But trust me, everyone that uses that scripture on another Christian is pretty sure that they are good with Christ
I can only speak for myself. Yes I read that scripture and think and hope it applies to others and not me. I hope I'm good with Christ but in 1 Corinthians 10 after mentioning the baptism into Moses and how God at times was not pleased with them and "their bodies were scattered in the wilderness" In verse 12 he warns So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! (NIV)
And what happened to Ananias and Sapphira should serve as a warning as others have mentioned. In 1 Peter 4 it says, " For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (KJV)
myelaine

dear Tammy...
you said: "Just for the record, I do not confess such a thing." in response to my statement: When I see one of my brothers in the faith being duplicious by confessing that creed and yet encouraging someone who doesn't agree with that creed in their belief(ie: if one in convinced and confesses that the Almighty is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit then it is self evident that he is lying to God, his brethern and all the angels when he encourages one to believe that God is also NOT of that nature); loyalty to God and that brother compells me to say something.
...I know you don't confess such a thing that is my point, this contemporanious "ananias" confess such a thing and yet encourages you in your belief that is NOT like this...a nature that is different...though you must admit that the nature of Jesus Christ is not relative to the way YOU see Him. He is who He described and taught to the apostles who later became the universal church. Their confession of the nature of God is contained in the apostles creed.
You are right that we aren't to follow the apostles like you seem to be implying (as we would follow Jesus)...but we are to follow their teaching about who Jesus Christ is as they were given the authority to teach who Jesus Christ is. You elive that Jesus was divine. Did you know about st. john the divine...thats what they called him...in your mind is Jesus more divine that st. john?...the church teaches that Jesus is deity, God the Son.
dear NewChapter you said: "No testing at all. No awareness or curiosity, just the assured expectation that your god of love is going to burn the bulk of humanity forever. Sad. But I feel saddest for the children that are told these horror stories and inculcated with pure fear to bully them to love a god. I don't believe this god can be loved---only feared. I also believe this is why people are so disfunctional in their relationships---they equate abuse with love because that is how their god rolls."
...If you had read what I wrote I said that I believe that the rebel angels have created this hell and it will be their everlasting domain. The gospel message in preached in order that humans would be "removed" out of this darkess and translated into the kingdom of God, wherein dwells the Light. Otherwise they remain here. As well, I don't believe that God is going to burn the bulk of humanity forever...hell is for the rebel angels and the bible does say that some humans will be inclined to join forces and rebel against God right along with them...I'm not sure that the bulk of humanity did rebel against God...even now with all the "gates" of hell being opened there are likely more neutral people than rebelious people. I know that being a JW you were taught that the whole purpose of armeggedon was vindictive...it isn't so much that as remedial...it is needed to once and for all remove the threat that satan and his angels pose to humanity. There are humans who pose a threat to humanity too though, do you deny this?...I wouldn't like it at all that people would be subject to the same judgement that satan and his angles are going to receive...but I know that God is entirely just and merciful to mankind and I believe that the resurrection is a second chance...the account in luke 16:19-31 describes a paradise for some and not for others. Then God resurrects those who sleep in the dust (daniel 12:2 those who haven't entered into His kingdom) These ones will, at that time, be given their second chance to repent and turn to the living God...or not. I also believe that the gates of hell have been opened BY SOME OF THESE WICKED HUMANS with their conjuring and such and with the pervasive and even trendy belief in all kinds of doctrines of demons etc...that the resurrections are taking place right now at this end of days. Some of these ones HAVE repented, some HAVE NOT repented and THEIR lot after hearing the everlasting gospel and still refusing is everlasting shame and contempt...
I have never gone to a church that taught their little ones to fear God and His judgement...perhaps they did and perhaps the fringe still do but not like the JW do and have...christain charity would warn others not condemn others wholesale. And that brings me to Tammy...I'm not condeming her either...I am simply warning her as to the consequences of her action in not listening to the authority that Jesus Christ Himself put into place...it is rebellion...as much as a child not listening to the real passive aggressive attitude along with sociopathic leanings of its mother when told to stay off the road, but rebeling and getting hurt or worse...but we ARE talking eternity here...
love michelle
p.s. Jesus said that if you are in Him and He in you that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to abode in you...if you are not in the real Jesus Christ then you would not receive the Holy Spirit...you could be easily deceived by whatever spirit that YOU wanted to believe was the Holy Spirit...I think it is important to know that these deceived will progress no farther in their knowledge of God. If they are nice people to begin with they would naturally have a ideology that sounds trustworthy, even semi "religious" as to a "faith" (to themselves and others) but they would not have a theology, an understanding of God and His will towards him and mankind. kind of a one dimentional "faith"
tec

...I know you don't confess such a thing that is my point, this contemporanious "ananias" confess such a thing and yet encourages you in your belief that is NOT like this...a nature that is different...though you must admit that the nature of Jesus Christ is not relative to the way YOU see Him. He is who He described and taught to the apostles who later became the universal church. Their confession of the nature of God is contained in the apostles creed.
It would help, Michelle, if you would use people's actual names, because I don't know who you are referring to with 'ananias'.
(The apostles creed, btw, does not say what you have written that it said. It does not speak of God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. That is more along the lines of the Nicene creed, which greatly expanded upon the apostles creed. The earlier version though, speaks nothing of Jesus as being God, or one person of a trinity. At all. I don't really have a problem with the apostles creed, other than that neither Christ nor those early apostles required that someone follow a creed to come to Christ or to have Life. Christ is the Life,a and so it is only through Him that we also have life... creed or no creed)
You are right that we aren't to follow the apostles like you seem to be implying (as we would follow Jesus)...but we are to follow their teaching about who Jesus Christ is as they were given the authority to teach who Jesus Christ is.
They were given authority to be witnesses of Christ. To forgive. To tell people of the good news. To say "Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty let him come, and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."
But Christ is the one we are to follow.
You belive that Jesus was divine. Did you know about st. john the divine...thats what they called him...in your mind is Jesus more divine that st. john?...the church teaches that Jesus is deity, God the Son.
What church is this?
Peace,
tammy
myelaine

dear Tammy..
the universal church teaches and believes that Jesus is God the Son...the various denominations of the church believe and teach this...the modern sects and cults do not believe and teach this.
you are right I was refering to the nicene creed which is confessed in the different church denominations.
you seem to be stuck on the concept of the church being the beginning of the knowledge of Jesus Christ for the individual. I can't think of any other way to get my meaning across other than to say that...if you want to learn a certain type of math, you learn the "concept" from a teacher...you don't keep looking to the teacher every time you want to do a math problem...you have learned the "concept" and you grow in your understanding of that type of math from there. The apostles where entrusted by Jesus to teach the people about Jesus...and then they looked to Him for growth in their faith in Him, being strengthened by the Holy Spirit as they grew and matured. The teaching found in the bible by the first church members/apostles and the church fathers as well, can also be a help in growth and maturity...we can learn from their experience as they grew and matured they gained knowledge of how God "worked" or showed His will in their lives and they passed it on. Not to lord it over the congregation but to guide them. the apostles knew what kind of responsibility they were given and took it seriously...in one case that must have been a question of very important doctrine we are told that those who wouldn't have the faith but continued to rebel were handed over to satan. I don't think that the loving apostle paul or any other one would let loose a brother in that way over a matter of little importance. I get the impression that these were in the position of being able to convince others in the congregation of something that could literally lead them into grave apostasy. the apostle paul was caring for the rest of the congregation who were entrusted into his care...he wasn't just being mean and unloving to these ones he let loose (1 timothy 1:18-20)...you can also read 1 timothy 1:12-17 to hear how much Jesus' trust meant to paul and how seriously he took that responsibility to teach those in his charge...he called them his dear children.
I wanted to also show you that another one of the church was at one time about to talk to his brothers about their common salvation but was compelled to instead talk to the congregation about the faith and those who would deceive. The Holy Spirit compelled him to teach about the false brothers who were not in THE faith...they were in the congregation but denied the Lord Jesus...I'm convinced that they denied the nature of the Lord Jesus as God the Son...just like in 1 john 2:19-23, speaking of those who were counted in the church but denied the Son and therefore didn't have the Father either(v.23)...Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard in the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father(v.24) ...These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you (v.26)
love michelle
tec

the universal church teaches and believes that Jesus is God the Son...the various denominations of the church believe and teach this...the modern sects and cults do not believe and teach this.
a) the great apostasy already happened; so why would I listen to men who profess to be the 'church' instead of Christ who is the head of the church?
b) what universal church are you speaking of?
you are right I was refering to the nicene creed which is confessed in the different church denominations.
Yes, the nicene creed, which changed the apostles creed, added to it, and was politically motivated and voted upon. You tell me that I am wrong, that I am listening to a demon, for not following the apostles creed. You, Michelle, are not following the apostles creed. The 'universal church' you are speaking of follows the nicene creed, which is all the things listed above.
Now follow what you want. If it is to Christ you look to see God; if it is Christ you put first and foremost; if it is the spirit of love, compassion, mercy, faith, forgiveness, that dwells within you and that you act upon... then good for you. He who is not against you is for you. And if it is not, then you are not mine to judge.
But do not think that i will accept a creed as the one above and do the same as you... when it is my Lord to whom I must look and follow.
you seem to be stuck on the concept of the church being the beginning of the knowledge of Jesus Christ for the individual.
Don't know what you mean here. I am not stuck on it. It can be and is for many... to hear of Him so as to be able to go to Him and know Him, and so have life through Him.
I can't think of any other way to get my meaning across other than to say that...if you want to learn a certain type of math, you learn the "concept" from a teacher...you don't keep looking to the teacher every time you want to do a math problem...you have learned the "concept" and you grow in your understanding of that type of math from there.
I think you should look at that analogy for yourself.
Apostles/disciples/the bride... witness to Christ. Then 'we' don't have to keep going to 'them' to 'do math problems'. We have learned that the answer (the TRUTH) is in Christ and so go to Him. His sheep hear HIS voice... not His sheep hear the voice of others who hear His voice.
The apostles where entrusted by Jesus to teach the people about Jesus...and then they looked to Him for growth in their faith in Him, being strengthened by the Holy Spirit as they grew and matured.
To tell people about Him, yes... but they were NOT to be called teachers (that is the teaching of Christ)... and they did not have nearly the amount of doctrines or creeds that are around today.
The teaching found in the bible by the first church members/apostles and the church fathers as well, can also be a help in growth and maturity...we can learn from their experience as they grew and matured they gained knowledge of how God "worked" or showed His will in their lives and they passed it on. Not to lord it over the congregation but to guide them.
And with so much having been added in from elsewhere as the years went by (such as those who were once in union with christ... having looked elsewhere, hence committing adultery with say the nations/politics/kings of the earth/other religions/etc), how can anyone know what is truth and what is from those adulterous unions?
Well, we can look to Christ. HE is the one who knows what is truth or not; or what He taught or not.
the apostles knew what kind of responsibility they were given and took it seriously...in one case that must have been a question of very important doctrine we are told that those who wouldn't have the faith but continued to rebel were handed over to satan.
And what doctrine was that?
Did Christ hand anyone over to Satan, btw? Did he give up on them like that? Perhaps He handed them over to GOD... to handle as God saw fit. Then on the cross, recall that Christ still asked forgiveness for all those who had sinned against Him, denied Him, etc. It is his example that we are to follow.
I don't think that the loving apostle paul or any other one would let loose a brother in that way over a matter of little importance.
You mean like a disagreement over a questionable doctrine or teaching?
I get the impression that these were in the position of being able to convince others in the congregation of something that could literally lead them into grave apostasy. the apostle paul was caring for the rest of the congregation who were entrusted into his care...he wasn't just being mean and unloving to these ones he let loose (1 timothy 1:18-20)...you can also read 1 timothy 1:12-17 to hear how much Jesus' trust meant to paul and how seriously he took that responsibility to teach those in his charge...he called them his dear children.
Paul also wrote, when this began to happen (and still happens today... much of the church is built upon the teachings of paul, even if those go against the teachings of christ), that NONE should be following him, or Peter, or Appollos. Only Christ.
I wanted to also show you that another one of the church was at one time about to talk to his brothers about their common salvation but was compelled to instead talk to the congregation about the faith and those who would deceive. The Holy Spirit compelled him to teach about the false brothers who were not in THE faith...they were in the congregation but denied the Lord Jesus...I'm convinced that they denied the nature of the Lord Jesus as God the Son...just like in 1 john 2:19-23,
See now the difference here, that you are convinced of... is that denying Christ does not = denying his nature of God the Son.
speaking of those who were counted in the church but denied the Son and therefore didn't have the Father either(v.23)...Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard in the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father(v.24) ...These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you (v.26)
Michelle, John says exactly what he means. No need to be 'convinced' of something else. He says it plain. .That there are some of those who go so far as to deny that Jesus is the Christ.
They denied that He was the messiah. This does not translate into what you translated.
However, is this what your argument with me is about? That I do not accept the nicene creed, and do not accept the teachings of 'mainstream christianity'? (If those teachings are in union with what Christ taught and teaches, then sure, I accept them... but not otherwise) Because I thought that your argument with me was something else. Perhaps you could define it in a plain, straightforward way?
Peace,
tammy
myelaine

dear Tammy...
you said:
"a) the great apostasy already happened; so why would I listen to men who profess to be the 'church' instead of Christ who is the head of the church?
b) what universal church are you speaking of?"...
where do you get your information that the "great" apostasy had happened...and what time are you refering to exactly?...by AD325 all the bishops of the church were called to settle the matter of who Jesus Christ was according to the teaching of the apostles, written documents and theological arguements...are you saying that the apostates won the day?...that God Almighty was so easily thwarted by man?...or is it more likely that God holds the destiny of the church in His hand and the Holy Spirit was present at that council and the intentions of God were carried out...that the one foundational DOGMA of the early church...who Jesus Christ IS was proclaimed by official creed...He is the FOUNDATION of THE faith.
having said that, it is apparent who the universal church is by looking at the witness of history, Tammy. With all its human problems it still has the seal of the Living God.
you said: "Yes, the nicene creed, which changed the apostles creed, added to it, and was politically motivated and voted upon"...and you, no doubt, suspect that it was added to to deceive the masses...no thought of articulating the teaching and witness of Jesus Christ or how the ONE God of creation could be extrapolated from OT books and the written accounts of the early church to a cohesive unity in order to help clarify for followers who God is? These men were servants to the most High God it was their task to serve the needs of the growing church...why the objection to "voting"?...isn't it true that reaching a concensus is a mark of unity?
you said: "if it is the spirit of love, compassion, mercy, faith, forgiveness, that dwells within you and that you act upon... then good for you. He who is not against you is for you."...as a matter of fact there are "groups" that live by this ideology who are not and will not call themselves christian, is it your stance that they are for Jesus Christ then?...against their stated beliefs you call the shots and they are indeed His?...interesting...please elaborate on that scripture. do you try at all to cast out demons, or even doctrines of demons, Tammy?...or do you welcome them, in all their guises, into fellowship with you? if you are following Jesus...WWJD?
you said: "We have learned that the answer (the TRUTH) is in Christ and so go to Him. His sheep hear HIS voice... not His sheep hear the voice of others who hear His voice."...His sheep heard His voice in the teaching of the apostles did they not? Jesus founded His church by the teaching of the Holy Spirit through peter and the apostles did He not?...the boreans checked the hebrew scriptures to see that what the apostles taught was true did they not?...are all these not His sheep because they didn't audibly hear His voice?...or maybe they just didn't have YOUR faith to hear His voice?
you said: "To tell people about Him, yes... but they were NOT to be called teachers (that is the teaching of Christ)... and they did not have nearly the amount of doctrines or creeds that are around today."...by your reasoning why wouldn't they just go to Him and get the information...why bother with instituting the church?...there aren't that many creeds and doctrines are culled from the written work contained in the bible, they most often have relevence to the orderly worship of God...who is a God of order not chaos.
you said: "Well, we can look to Christ. HE is the one who knows what is truth or not; or what He taught or not."...john 8:24, mark 9:42-48
you said: "Did Christ hand anyone over to Satan, btw? Did he give up on them like that? Perhaps He handed them over to GOD... to handle as God saw fit. Then on the cross, recall that Christ still asked forgiveness for all those who had sinned against Him, denied Him, etc. It is his example that we are to follow."...Jesus called some people sons of their father, satan...and said that they wouldn't enter the kingdom...they would therefore be cast out to be with satan. On the cross Jesus asked the Father to forgive the people there because they knew not what they did, earlier He wasn't so forgiving to those people who He called sons of their father, satan. do you think that we should draw a line of distinction between forgiving those who know not what they do and those who know they are enemies of Christ?
you said: "Paul also wrote, when this began to happen (and still happens today... much of the church is built upon the teachings of paul, even if those go against the teachings of christ), that NONE should be following him, or Peter, or Appollos. Only Christ."
...in response to: "I get the impression that these were in the position of being able to convince others in the congregation of something that could literally lead them into grave apostasy. the apostle paul was caring for the rest of the congregation who were entrusted into his care...he wasn't just being mean and unloving to these ones he let loose (1 timothy 1:18-20)...you can also read 1 timothy 1:12-17 to hear how much Jesus' trust meant to paul and how seriously he took that responsibility to teach those in his charge...he called them his dear children."...paul was saying that the church "bishops"were in agreement on important matters of the faith and therefore there was no call for picking one preacher over another. this scripture I quoted relates to those who he thought were in a position to deceive the congregation by teaching something otherthan what the church taught...and because he did remove them from the congregation and deliver them to satan it would have been for something important like an anti-christ teaching...a dogma...not a doctrine, or a mere opinion they held contrary to the teaching of the church.
you said: "See now the difference here, that you are convinced of... is that denying Christ does not = denying his nature of God the Son."...well, if you deny that Jesus Christ is God the Son then you are indeed denying the fulness of His very person, the Christ.
you said: "Michelle, John says exactly what he means. No need to be 'convinced' of something else. He says it plain. .That there are some of those who go so far as to deny that Jesus is the Christ. They denied that He was the messiah. This does not translate into what you translated."
... 1 john 2:18-23, the criteria for the anti-christ(s) are those who deny Jesus is the Christ; they deny the essential unity of the Father and Son "relationship" in the Godhead...see my response above...if the teaching of the Father and Son that was taught by the apostles abides in you the Holy Spirit abides in you as well...you are anointed from the Holy ONE.
love michelle

Killing Ananias and Sapphira

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