by Recovery 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
As Jehovah's Witnesses we were led to believe that every single statement in the Bible has some deep, deep, deep hidden meaning that we need the Watchtower Society to explain to us. This is the problem here.
If they are not the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and we have proven that they are not, what does it matter? The real Faithful and Discreet Slave has not made themselves obvious. I, personally, don't worry about it at all.
Just by way of reminder, the original question was...
If the anointed are not the FDS then who is?
This question fails to take into account that a slave can be faithful and discreet, and then cease to behave in that manner. Also, the SCRIPTURES are clear when showing how anyone regardless of wether or not they were specifically chosen by God, can lose his favor because of disobedience. It is almost as if the above question is saying: The GB are anointed, therefore they are the FDS regardless of their behavior. There is no way to be " grandfathered " in as a FDS. You must endure to the end of your life and be judged as an FDS on your individual merits, or judged as an FDS when Christ returns, also on your individual merits. Also, you raised a point about the 144,000. You asked how could there be millions of the FDS? Who are the domestics? Please answer these two questions: What is the scriptural hope of all who died BEFORE Christ? What is the Christian hope? Finally, according to the SCRIPTURES, did the heavenly hope ever end, if so by who's authority and when?
Recovery said:
Ding said: It was Jesus' way of stressing the importance of ALL Christians being faithful to God rather than being wicked servants who lord it over others
This argument was already pulled by sebastious and it horribly failed when these questions were asked:
How is it that all of God's people provide spiritual food to each other?
How is it that the FDS is about all faithful Christians yet they are appointed over all of Christ's belongings? How is every individual Christian placed over Christ's belongings?
Where'd you get the mistaken idea that ONLY the FDS is tasked to feed others? You are reading a restriction into the parable that isn't there....
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of brotherhood, being thy brother's keeper, or the command to care for the spiritual needs of others, if only simply by not "stumbling" others? The "food" in question is spiritual, and whether you want to admit it or not, each servant of God 'feeds' other other sheep spiritually by studying with the unbaptized, even feeding them with appropriate food for their individual level of spiritual growth.
I know: you want to say that the parable says that only the master servant feeds the others, but you're making a HUGE flawed assumption by going with that interpretation: if THAT were the case, then the FDS better step up their game, as none of the great crowd should be 'feeding' any others! You're assuming that the feeding work should not be delegated to others, and hence the responsibility for the task ALSO is delegated to others.
If you want to focus on the MATERIAL possessions needed to carry out God's work, Jesus made it clear that actually ALL material items on Earth ARE created by God and his possessions; even there, all men are expected to be responsible stewards of God's creations, and are thus supposed to exercise reasonable care over God's 'possessions'.
@ Recovery,
Do you personally feel that you will gain everlasting life? If so, why?
"Fair enough. Since no one will use scriptures to disprove JW's, I will use the scriptures to prove that they are right, although the failure of 99% of the posters on this board to provide a scriptural refutation of JW's doctrine (which they already know quite well) already proves JW's right."
DJ, I look forward to seeing your proof supposition. BTW, check out my previous post. Deuteronomy, when compared with the litany of failed predictions from the society, proves the witnesses are WRONG.
Moreover.....Jeffro is correct. You really need to try to understand how the burden of proof works. Let alone the approach you've taken. Is this how you "reach" ones at the door when you go in service? Do you base an argument off of unproven supposition and then challenge the householder to prove you wrong? Thus far you have still not shown anyone here why Matthew 24:45-47 should apply as a future prophecy. Still waiting.....
"Sooooo, using your own logic: if some other church claims to be the Faithful and Wise Servant, using the same scriptural proof as WTBTS does, then we MUST accept that, and prove them wrong?
I could claim to be King of Mars, and you'd be forced to accept it until it is positively disproven?"
Exactly King Solomon. I'll add one. Big Foot EXISTS! Now.....the burden of proof rests with the rest of you to prove that he does not.
I do not have the time nor the desire to watch apostate videos on Youtube. I've already done so in the past countless hours and it was a waste of time and a dissapointment since I was expecting the almighty exGilead graduate to actually set me straight scripturally. If there is a scriptural reference you believe that debunks the FDS doctrine, post it, and we will examine it.
I did give you a scriptural reference of which you ignored and dismissed. You acted like I didn't give it and then asked the same question again. You don't give satisfactory reasoning as to why the particular reference is invalid, you just say so. The people who are reading this thread should consider Recovery as a quintessential example of confirmation bias. Now, the brain does work by association so it's constantly confirming data that is coming in with known data, so there is healthy range to confirmation bias as we need it to sort the data taken in by our senses. A lot of people get wrongly accused on this forum of acting out confirmation bias, but we need only take a look at Recovery here to see the real deal. The poster child so to speak.
He came to this forum and posted this first:
Let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed Christians are not the FDS. If the anointed are not the FDS, who are? - Recovery
This question was presented as honest and genuine inquiry. He was then given an answer to the "honest question" he posed by 00DAD:
No one. They don't exist. It's a JW Myth - 00DAD
He then goes on to reply:
Well I'd never consider the words of Jesus Christ himself to be a myth or to have no meaning whatsoever. - Recovery
Recovery is implying that we have in our possession the actual words of Jesus. As if we have an ancient tape recorder or something. This is not even close to true, but nonetheless he slams it on the table and demands that everyone just assume it's true because he does. When there is nothing but evidence that all of Jesus words were preserved through unreliable oral tradition that was translated into a foreign language. The end product of the Gospels are just copies of copies, but when Recovery refers to "Jesus' words" he acts like he has them on hand.
Regardless of what JW's believe about the FDS, Jesus still used it in a parable and it is a statement found in God's inspired word. - Recovery
Here is another assertion that the Bible is the "inspired Word of God" which is just an assumption he tries to slam down all our throats. These foundational peices are unverified, but are nonetheless required for Recovery's theology to make any sense whatsoever. He has to make sure he's the "home team" or else he has no chance of winning even under his own definitions and requirements.
After realizing that his OP question was not specific enough Recovery then changes the goal posts:
If you cannot produce a different, more plausible, and scripturally accurate meaning of Jesus' words, how can you say for sure that JW's explanation of it is wrong? - Recovery
So now Recovery has shown his true intentions. He did not make this thread to get any questions answered, he wanted to show to the lurkers, that he knows exists here, that we are wrong by any means necessary. He essentially rigs the entire conversation by putting the burden of proof on this forum rather than where it logically should fall which is on the alleged Watchtower FDS and HIM.
I then gave my answer to his question in his OP which was swiftly rejected as invalid. All of this is a set up for Recovery to be able to say thing like this:
Your own interpretation debunks itself. - Recovery
So again, we have another post that has yet to scripturally provide a better explanation than that provided by JW's. - Recovery
Sure, sure, sure! Who am I to argue against the private scriptural interpretations and mighty Biblical arguments of the mighty sabastious? - Recovery
The rest of the responses were simply rhetoric of what was already stated and more opinions and miscellaneous quotes from the WT to support those again. - Recovery
Everything somewhat interesting on page 3 answered. Still no scriptural refutation of JW's doctrine. - Recovery
The rest, again, are quoted scriptures (yay!) but simply do not disprove JW doctrine. I can quote those scriptures to refer to the members of this board or the churches of Christendom as well. - Recovery
Recovery came here so that he could set himself up to make statements like this. This is about his own confirmation and his own methods, not ours. He just needs content from us so that his bias can go to work. Unfortunately this plan has backfired because now the audience can see clearly what his true intentions always were. Not to come to truth, but to try to smear us and build himself and his religion up in the process. It's an AGE OLD tactic that religions have been using for eons, but this is the last generation that give into the seducation of willful ignorance.
Recovery also used a prejudiced slur in a reply:
I do not have the time nor the desire to watch apostate videos on Youtube. I've already done so in the past countless hours and it was a waste of time and a dissapointment since I was expecting the almighty exGilead graduate to actually set me straight scripturally. If there is a scriptural reference you believe that debunks the FDS doctrine, post it, and we will examine it. - Recovery
A lot of people have given you their time, Recovery, why not offer the same in return? Once again you are using your own bias to generalize and come to firm conclusions. What this all amounts to is that you are nothing but a JW troll who had a moment of braveness to go "expose" apostates on the internet. But what actually happened is the opposite of what you set out to do. You have given the JW's a bad witness as the vast majority of them do. All you did was confirm your own bias while many here have confirmed actual truths about how JW's interact with ex members: shamefully. I thank you for your time.
-Sab
Who Really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave -Letting the Bible Interpret Itself
Why The Words Are Important and Not Just a Mere Parable:
Matthew 24 and the parallel accounts of Luke and Mark are in response to the question: "Tell us, Whenwill these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” So everything in Matthew 24 is in answer to this all-important question. This is surely something of importance since Jesus included it in his response and should therefore be taken seriously. Secondly, notice the words 'when will'... and 'what will be...' So Jesus is answering a question that has a future implication. Therefore Matthew 24 is a chapter of prophecy since it concerns future events. Therefore, everything, including the parable, could rightly be said to be a prophecy. So the claim that this is just a mere parable and not a prophecy is false and is clearly at odds with what the Bible tells us.
Who is the Faithful Slave And What Do They Do?:
A parallel account of Matthew 24 is found in Luke 12, specifically starting at Luke 12:42 "And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? So putting the accounts together we can gather the faithful steward = faithful steward, the body of attendants = the domestics, and the food supplies = proper food. What is a steward? It is defined as a house manager of administrator, although he himself is a servant. A good example of this would be Joseph (Genesis 39:1-6), who was a steward of Potiphar's house having much authority, although he himself was a slave/servant. This steward would be giving proper food supplies at the proper time. So who is the faithful steward? To answer this question we need to find out who the 'domestics' or 'body of attendants' are and where the spiritual food is dispensed from.
Who Are The Body of Attendants And Where Does Spiritual Food Come From?
Since a steward is a house manager (as in the case of Joseph), there must be domestics or the body of attendants. Who are these house servants? Notice 1 Timothy 3:15 "but in case I am delayed, that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household, which is the congregation of [the] living God, a pillar and support of the truth." Ephesians 2:19 reaffirms this when it says: "Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God.."
Hebrews 3:6 "but Christ [was faithful] as a Son over the house of that One. We are the house of that One, if we make fast our hold on our freeness of speech and our boasting over the hope firm to the end."
So the domestics were the members of the Christian Congregation. However, such a stewardship of divine truths was also expected of ordinary, regular members of God's household, not just the apostles. 1 Peter 4:10-11 "10 In proportion as each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness expressed in various ways. 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as it were [the] sacred pronouncements of God." Peter later even references information presented in Paul's letter. So it was the duty of all Christians, whether prophesying, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, speaking at congregation meetings, or ministering to one another, to provide this vital spiritual food. Even the apostles received spiritual food from one another. 1 Peter 1 tells us that he is talking to the 'chosen ones', the anointed ones, so all anointed ones would have a part in doing this. Even with this being the case, only specific brothers (such as the apostles) gave instruction to the congregations as a whole. This is because even though the entire faithful and discreet slave class, God's anointed ones, provided spiritual food, there were certain individuals put in place to provide spiritual food over the congregations as a whole.
Notice Ephesians 2:20 "20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.."
1 Corinthians 12:27 "Now YOU are Christ’s body, and members individually. 28 And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues..."
So now all we need to know: was there a spiritual feeding program in the first century to the congregations by the apostles?
1 Corinthians 3:1,2 "And so, brothers, I was not able to speak to YOU as to spiritual men, but as to fleshly men, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed YOU milk, not something to eat, for YOU were not yet strong enough. In fact, neither are YOU strong enough now.."
Hebrews 5:12 "For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong."
1 Thessalonians 4:1 "Finally, brothers, we request YOU and exhort YOU by the Lord Jesus, just as YOU received [the instruction] from us on how YOU ought to walk and please God, just as YOU are in fact walking, that YOU would keep on doing it more fully. 2 For YOU know the orders we gave YOU through the Lord Jesus."
Ephesians 3:10 "[This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord.."
2 Corinthians 5:20 "We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: “Become reconciled to God."
2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught, whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours."
It is obvious beyond any doubt that there was a spiritual feeding program. The exact words of the apostles even indicate they used literal food or 'food supplies' as a metaphor for spiritual instruction.
Who Is The Faithful And Discreet Slave Today?
Many have put out various charts and photos showing what they believe should be required to identify the faithful and discreet slave of today. They use such things as miracles, infallibility, prophecy, and things of a supernatural sort to prove that JW's cannot be the FDS. However, is this really a valid line of reasoning?
2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9 "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents
This echoes Jesus' earlier sentiments at Matthew 7:22,23 "22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
So clearly miracles and powerful works and infallibility and prophecying would not be the identifying marks of true Christians. How then do we identify the faithful and discreet slave today? John 8:31 "And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples," So judge JW's on how closely they follow the Bible. We know the Trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul, purgatory, worship of Mary, reverence of the cross, clergy/laity distinction/, many national holidays, involvement in politics and war, and other things to all be either unscriptural, purely human tradition, of pagan and thus satanic origin, and things that conflict with God's word. If we acknowledge that all these things are unscriptural (not remaining in Jesus' words), where can the faithful and discreet slave be found if it not Jehovah's Witnesses?
So judge JW's on how closely they follow the Bible. We know the Trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul, purgatory, worship of Mary, reverence of the cross, clergy/laity distinction/, many national holidays, involvement in politics and war, and other things to all be either unscriptural, purely human tradition, of pagan and thus satanic origin, and things that conflict with God's word. If we acknowledge that all these things are unscriptural (not remaining in Jesus' words), where can the faithful and discreet slave be found if it not Jehovah's Witnesses?
LOL! What a boldface lie that is. The JW's DO have a clergy/laity distinction. Turn to 3:40 of this video for proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPr9rFi3B2c
-Sab
OSTS said:
Exactly King Solomon. I'll add one. Big Foot EXISTS! Now.....the burden of proof rests with the rest of you to prove that he does not.
ElderElite started a thread not too long ago that mocked the idea that we MUST accept ideas without supporting evidence until they are disproven. It was pretty funny, as it becomes topsy-turvy if the World operated like that. Can't find it now....
