Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Recovery 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • GromitSK

    It seems perfectly reasonable to have a debate on here between folks who accept the bible as an authority, perhaps even between believers and non-believers from a theoretical point of view at least. I don't quite understand why JWs shouldn't post here since not all of the members are 'apostate' in the strictest sense, or even inactive. In a way Recovery is preaching I guess.

    If Recovery is asserting that the WTS position is correct, then that position must be shown to be absolutely correct based on both scripture and the logical interpretation of it. It is not sufficient to simply propose a position and bat away relevant objections just because they don't scripturally completely refute it, particularly if there are associated logical objections to the WTS's position. This seems to me to be especially true if an objection is based on potential ambiguity in the text. Surely it is not necessary to show the WTS's position is wrong for Recovery's assertion to fail, merely that it may not be correct. This is because he is claiming to be right, not 'probably correct' or 'most likely'. The introduction of doubt is sufficient, one would have thought, to induce a reasonable person to accept that their position may not be correct, I don't get a sense of any equivocation in Recovery's position so simply saying 'well you have haven't undermined my positioncompletely so your objections can be ignored and I must be correct' seems somewhat illogical to me. They may of course believe whatever they like.

    I have no interest in the scriptural position as I do not regard the Bible as any kind of authority, however if one accepts hypothetically that there is a specific 'discreet slave', the next logical question seems to me to be 'well, who is it?'. I cannot see, even if there is a specific 'discreet slave', how that could possibly be the WTS given their record before and after the date when they were supposedly 'approved' by Jesus who returned invisibly (I cannot see any other religious authority who would qualify either frankly).

    As an outside observer (ex JW - thank 'God'), and not that this observation matters with respect to the content of the argument; Recovery, some of your objections to other posts as 'rants' look like gross exaggerations and border on ad hominem attacks - not particularly attractive if you are claiming the upper-hand spiritually. I wouldn't have thought this was a great advert for your supposed god-approved organisation frankly, maybe that's another reason the WTS want JWs to stay away from places like this.

  • cedars

    Our mini-survey on this subject has yielded some interesting responses...




    @ Recovery,

    Many people here have differing coping mechanisms, so you are going to be messed with a bit when you come here. That doesn't mean they don't honestly care about you. Many here would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it, much like the Good Samaritan. They just have simply had their fill of persons who behave as you have been. I am sure you have your reasons at this time. You cannot go through life only looking at one side of the issue. How would you like to be accused of a crime, walk into court, and have the judge throw out your defense team? How could a just decision be rendered if the Judge refused to look at all the evidence? That is all they are asking from you. Why ask for " evidence from those here and then say that you do not have the desire or time to read it? Please read what I have written below as well.

    Why are you here? You are disobeying a specific " suggestion " from the FDS by visiting " apostate " websites in an attempt to challenge their views.

    You are by extension, disobeying God and Christ. This is a very serious matter as it involves your everlasting life. This would also cause some to view your actions as hypocritical, and you could lose your freeness of speech. You are fond of speaking of " scriptural " proof. This leads me to believe that you truly value God's word, and I totally respect that. Please, do just one thing for me, and for yourself. Just using your copy of the Bible, any translation or translations, please explain to me the meaning of Galatians 4:26. Use the Bible only, please.

    Have you looked at those other sites that I mentioned? Also, please answer one question with a simple yes or no.

    Would you obey any human being who commanded you to do something contrary to the teachings of Christ Jesus, the head of the Congregation?

    Yes, or no answer only, please...

    Your Brother,


  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Recovery – I challenge you to prove the line of reasoning in this post wrong. Some of this I already posted but not all of it. My challenge is that you use the BIBLE to prove any of the assertions in this argument wrong. I am being sincere. I would love to share the same beliefs as my parents, my wife and most of my friends, I don't want to have to walk around afraid of telling the truth about what I believe for fear of getting DF'd. The problem is I need to know that what I believe is the truth, and this line of reasoning proves that the so called faithful slave is NOT who they say they are. So once again I challenge you. Just like the society you picked out of my last post what you wanted to use and ignored ther rest. That is intelectually dishonest. If you are going to attempt to defend what you feel is the truth, do it in a truthful way.

    Tell me why I should ignore Jesus's command at Luke 21:8

    Tell me why Mark 13:21-23 does not apply to the society

    Explain to me why Deuteronomy 18:20-23 does not apply to who you call the "faithful slave"

    I will warn you however, if you are simply a JW troll (and you very well may be) you might not want to try to argue this using scriptures. You may just realize that everything you have believed, everything you have known as the truth is all lies. Ultimately that is good to know, however it hurts like nothing else when the realization finally hits you. If that is the case, if you don't want to risk the pain, then just go ahead and label me as an apostate, say I am going to die because I believe what the bible says, give some flip answers, and ignore the argurment found here.

    1. I do not believe the Bible identifies the slave. Even Christ asked it as a rhetorical question.
    2. The slave is chosen on the masters (Christ’s) return. That has not happened yet.

    I know he has not returned yet because the following has not happened:

    (Matthew 24:30) And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    (Revelation1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

    There are other scriptures along these lines as well but those two should be sufficient.

    I can however prove SCRIPTURALLY that the WTBTS is NOT the “faithful slave”

    First of all lets look at this clear and simple command that Jesus gave his followers:

    (Luke 21:8) He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.

    Notice this COMMAND? “Do not go after them.”. Pretty clear to me

    (1John4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

    (Mark13:21-23) “Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it]. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand.

    Now the question is did the WTBTS say “The due time has approached”?

    Of course. So many times it has almost become their mantra. Here are just two or three of the many many times they been guilty of this. (Both before and after they claim Jesus chose them for being faithful and discrete)

    "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." Watchtower 1922 Mar 1 p.73

    " The date of the close of that "battle" is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874. " Zion's Watch Tower 1892 January 15 p.23

    The Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.... The travail that is coming is to be upon nominal Zion- "Christendom" … "Babylon"; and it will be a great and sore affliction- "A Time of Trouble such as was not since there was a nation." (The Finished Mystery p. 62 [stated to be the "Posthumous Work of Pastor Russell" on p. 2])

    Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by million, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 485)

    "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)

    "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914." Watchtower 1924 p.211

    This warning that the “appointed time has come” is a regular hobby for the FDS. Christ also gave us another warning about false prophets where he compared them to fruit trees and said we would know them by their fruit. What is the fruit of a false prophet? False prophecy. How do we know if prophecy is false? Simple:

    (Deuteronomy 18:20-23)

    20 “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

    These scriptures alone show without the shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ could never have chosen a group of false prophets to represent him. He specifically told his followers NOT to follow false prophets. So even if he had returned in 1914 (which he didn’t) he STILL would never have chosen them. And EVEN if he did and you write off all the false prophecy before 1918, what did they turn around and do after they supposedly entered into an “approved condition”


    In 1919 the anointed disciples of the reigning King, Jesus Christ, did enter into an approved condition , and this was attended with immense joy on their part.

    They didn’t even slow down on the false prophecy. They had the nerve to continue to insist that Christ presence started in 1874:

    "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)

    None of this is even taking into account that the date 1914 is simply wrong. It is easy to prove that scripturally as well. Of course historians (and anyone with any sense) knows that Jerusalem fell in 587. However to prove that you need to go into a deeper study that most witnesses just can’t follow. To simply prove 1914 wrong by the scriptures all you have to do is read

    (Jeremiah 25:12) 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

    The Governing Body agrees with all historians that Jerusalem fell in 589. They count 70 years back from 587 to come up with 607. But that is clearly wrong. Notice what the scripture above says: “ when seventy years have been fulfilled”. That means that Jehovah would call into account Belshazzar AFTER the seventy years are complete. He can’t do that 2 years AFTER the King is dead, after all the dead are “conscience of nothing at all”. So unless the WTBTS wants to say Jehovah was lying they are definitely 2 years off on 1914. That is clear, simple and based on scripture. The fact is they are 20 years off but it really does not matter because we really don’t need to know when that time is:

    (Acts1:7) He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;

    With all the above I believe I have moved any perceived burden of “scriptural proof” squarely on your shoulders to show the following (using scriptures as I did)

    1. Prove Christ has arrived
    2. Prove he chose the WTBTS in 1918-1919

    Not possible. Period.

  • Emery

    Yes I have. If you'd like a thorough explanation of why JW's have the right to claim that the FDS is found among them then I suggest you research it using the Online Watchtower Library. Otherwise, if I get time I will make a post that explains why scripturally.

    I am looking forward to this explanation Recovery. The evidence clearly shows over 88 false prophecies and completely ridiculous interpretations of scripture during that judgment. You will also find that they advanced a spiritistic book called "Angels and Women" (Seola) in 1924 which was originally written by a spirit medium J.G. Smith, who was inspired by a fallen antediluvian angel trying to get back to the good graces of Jehovah. They still practiced babylonish teachings after their supposed cleansing in 1919; the cross, christmas, creature worship of Pastor Russell, Jesus worship, blood transfusions, and much more. Egyptian pyramidology as being part of the bible. They preached a false prophecies of the end arriving in 1914, 1918, and 1925 during their judgment of the preaching work. So if you say that "JW's were the only ones preaching", that is true, but they preached a false gospel which nullifies the entire argument.

    If you think Jehovah and Jesus Christ advance false prophecies and ridiculous false teachings through his divine channel of communication, then you seem to have faith in a reckless and immature god.

    You're also going to have to demonstrate to us the chronology of 1919 in the bible without WTS references. Where in the bible does it say or even hint at Jesus returning invisibly to judge all world religions in 1919 during his rule or presence?

  • leavingwt

    The JWs claim that they were chosen -- above all other religions -- in 1919, in an inspection by Jesus. How does this claim hold up?

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Emory -

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Recovery - In case you want to stick strictly to scriptures here is the challenge, four question. Use scriptures.

    Tell me why I should ignore Jesus's command at Luke 21:8

    Tell me why Mark 13:21-23 does not apply to the society

    Explain to me why Deuteronomy 18:20-23 does not apply to who you call the "faithful slave"

    Explain to me why the FDS directly claims Jehovah lied in Jeremiah 25:12

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    Recovery - You said: Let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed Christians are not the FDS. If the anointed are not the FDS, who are?

    I thought of one other question I would like to scripturally challenge you on.

    Your belief is that the annointed are those of the 144,000. Read the first part of Revelation 7. When are the 144,000 sealed?

    The sealing does not even start until AFTER the sixth seal is opened. Was the sixth seal opened in 33 AD?

    Please show that scripturally

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Recovery said:

    KingSolomon said: You are VERY MISTAKEN on who bears the burden of proof here. It's NOT our burden to disprove their claim: it's up to THEM to quote scripture to PROVE that it's a prophecy pointing to the GB. They can't. That means they can "run their odd interpretation up the flagpole" all day long, but that doesn't mean anyone has to salute.

    They have already done so numerous times. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds of articles where they quote scripture to prove that it is so. The burden of proof is on those who oppose their viewpoint, since it is them who claim that JW's are wrong. You cannot claim someone is wrong, without proving that they are. Therefore the burden of proof rests on you, the members of this board.

    Sooooo, using your own logic: if some other church claims to be the Faithful and Wise Servant, using the same scriptural proof as WTBTS does, then we MUST accept that, and prove them wrong?

    I could claim to be King of Mars, and you'd be forced to accept it until it is positively disproven?

    News-flash: you're operating on your own rules of debate and logic/rhetoric from the rest of the rational World, using ideas that were pulled out of your backside orifice, thus stepping outside of accepted principles by which those of us in the actual World operate...

    Good luck with THAT!

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