Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Recovery 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Indian Larry
    Indian Larry

    You said: Indian Larry said: Explain to me why the FDS directly claims Jehovah lied in Jeremiah 25:12 - I have never read an article where it was stated that Jehovah lied about a scripture.

    That is true. I misspoke when I wrote the question. It would be better phrased this way:

    Explain to me why the FDS does not agree with when the 70 years ended. Jehovah was clear that it had to be COMPLETE BEFORE he called into account Nebuchadezzar. How can the slave say it ended two years after Nebuchadnezzar died if the dead are conscience of "nothing at all"?

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Recovery said:

    This is not my line of reasoning at all. Notice my original question: Let's assume, as most of your probably have, that the anointed Christians are not the FDS.

    We don't have to ASSUME that, as that IS the default position most here HAVE.

    If the anointed are not the FDS, who are?

    That's been answered repeatedly, but for some reason you don't feel compelled to accept our interpretation, just as we don't feel to accept yours? Since you've simply assembled a series of nebulous inferred claims based on your desire to convert a parable into a prophecy, you haven't presented sufficient evidence to convince anyone, so we don't accept it... If you HAVE further evidence, lay it on us: we're all ears.

    My question does not require that anyone accept what JW's teach about the FDS.

    Oh, don't worry about us accepting it: we won't, unless you present compelling evidence and a stronger case as to WHY we should accept it.

    The only thing my question is requiring is that it be shown that the FDS interpretation is wrong.


    I haven't accepted it, and don't accept ANY interpretation other than what the 'plain-text' reading of the passage suggests (that it is a parable designed to teach a broad principle to everyone who cares to consider Jesus' message).

    JW's have been converting parables into prophecies with greater ease than with which Jesus turned water into wine, taking Jesus' words well beyond what a plain-text reading suggests, and what credible Biblical scholars and theologians support. The temptation to do so is great, esp when there's $$$ and control to be gained if done successfully (as it HAS been done by JWs GB).

    Oh wait: I see you're going to give someone with a doctorate degree from UC Berkeley (nice place: ever heard of it?) in a scientific discipline a lesson in the principles of logic and rhetoric. OK, this should be amusing (or tedious)....

    It is like this: Someone says to me: You are not straight! (JW's are not the FDS) You are gay (JW's are not the FDS). I say: Okay, that might be true, but since you're saying that I am definitely not straight, prove it.(prove that JW's are wrong, you don't have to assume they are right, just prove them wrong) You don't have to believe that i'm straight to prove that I'm not. (You don't have to accept JW's FDS teaching to prove them wrong) Then the person responds: No, your logic is all messed up! YOU need to prove that you are straight. (No, the burden of proof is on you). I don't believe you are straight (JW's are not the FDS) but it is not my responsibility to prove that you are not straight (but the burden of proof is on you), it is yours to prove that YOU ARE straight!

    WOW.... Not amusing, but tedious.

    Look, simply because you can rephrase a question into the reverse form doesn't change the true FACTS of the situation:

    The default historical reading of the passage is that it's a PARABLE. In 1875, a small sect of evangelical Christians called themselves JWs, and sometime later decided that this passage points to THEM and THEM ALONE (although, AFAIK it was used by other churches to claim a stewardship role over other Christians). However, the burden of proof for their claims to the exclusive use of the passage as a prophecy remains on them, to overcome the traditional reading: THEY are in the position of having to prove THEIR interpretation being correct/consistent with the other passages.

    It is the opposers who have the ridiculous and absurd reasoning as shown here. My question did not require that anyone accept that JW's teach until it is proven wrong.

    No Spit, Sparlock: no one said you DID require us to accept your interpretation in order to reject it. THAT'S THE POINT.

    It only required that the JW's be proven wrong. What a sly inference to thwart and belittle my reasoning ability when that was never a requirement of the question.

    Uh, NO (see above).

    PS we also don't have to offer you some other explanation than what's been offered, just to make YOU sleep better at night worrying if you're in a cult: that's not OUR responsibility, either.

    To repeat:

    We're saying we HAVEN'T accepted it, so if you want us to accept YOUR interpretation, YOU have to prove it, convincing us that it is more logically consonant with the principles of logic, prior scriptural passages that support the non-standard interpretation, etc.


    @ Recovery,

    So on this Island in the middle of nowhere, with you Bible AND the HOLY SPIRIT to guide you, YOU would not be led to all truth as Christ Jesus promised? Everything I have said is relevant, you simply can't or won't see how the minute details all add up for one picture. Also, why are we still celebrating the Memorial if Christ has already returned? Where in the scriptures did Jesus command Christians to pass a plate and cup from one to the other and stare at them? Where in the Bible does it say that a printing facility or Corporation will survive the GT? Only individuals are promised survival. I know it is alot to take in. You are in the " unconscious incompetent " stage of learning, you don't even know what you don't know. Don't worry, if YOU truly love your creator whith all your heart, and mind and strength, and your neighbor, Christ knows it. He knows his sheep, and none of his sheep will be lost. Remember that and trust Him, not men because they cannot give you life. You future is not secure if you are devoted to men.

  • flipper

    RECOVERY- There IS no such thing as the " faithful & discreet slave ". It was just a parable Jesus used in his discussions . This entire thread is much to do about nothing

  • rip van winkle
    rip van winkle

    KSol said-No Spit, Sparlock. It just needed repeating (cause it's a funny take on No Sh*t, Sherlock)

  • moshe
    I believe the entire Bible is inspired by God and completely accurate historically, scientifically, and prophetically.

    Unfortunately, you have not learned to discern the difference between a literal interpretation and allegory or metaphor- starting with the Garden of Eden story-

    You are not convincing anyone here- and you have not produced even ONE name of any living JW who is officially recognized as one of the F&DS by the WT Publishing Corp.- your fancy footwork is much ado about nothing and has accomplished nothing. This lame F&DS subject is in the same category as how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin-

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Recover said:

    I believe the entire Bible is inspired by God and completely accurate historically, scientifically, and prophetically.
    So, you're basically admitting that you know next to nothing about science and history, then? Because that's it would take, to make such a self-incriminating statement....

  • Jeffro
    Yes it was a rant. Your answer to my question was that the Bible isn't inspired anyway, and a whole bunch of anti-Biblical rhetoric that wasn't called for since this is a scriptural debate.

    It was hardly a 'rant'. Your description of my so-called 'rant' was as long as the supposed 'rant' itself.

    It is a strawman argument (not to mention circular reasoning) to claim that saying the Bible isn't 'inspired' (through some unstated unprovable mechanism) becomes a 'scriptural debate'. Back in reality, it is entirely appropriate to assess the suitability of any source (yes, even 'the Bible').

    The question acknowledges that JW's have already done their 'proving' of the doctrine. The members of this board are quite familiar with JW's doctrine and thus there was no need for me to 'prove' from the outset the doctrine since it was already known. However, I just proved it again just for the sake of the argument. The burden of proof is on the opposers since they so forthcomingly claim it is false. JW's have proven their side, now the opposers must prove it wrong, since they are the ones claiming it is false. The only thing sad about this argumentation is that you are better debating about the 'burden of proof' instead of actually proving JW's to be in error when interpreting scripture. Thanks for the insults as it was quite expected since you have no scriptural refutation of anything JW's believe and can only resort to insults/petty definition arguments.

    Incorrect. JWs haven't 'proven' anything. All they've ever done is state their unproven interpretations (many of which are contrary to established facts).

    You repeat your irrelevant claim about 'scriptual refutation', though no indication has been given for why 'scripture' should be recognised as any kind of authority.

  • Sauerkraut

    Recovery, you seem to write quite lengthy posts and I don't feel like reading through all the pages. If you still believe the two class hope doctrine, that a limited number go to heaven and the rest stay on earth, you might as well forget about your question. If you figure out that there is no distinction between "anointed" and non-anointed Christians, the parable of the FDS gets a completely new meaning. The meaning intended for it.

    Paul says in Ephesians 4:4 that all who are called have one hope. The hope to be with Jesus. In Romans 8 he contrasts those who are in the Spirit with those who are in the flesh. He shows there are only two ways- be in the spirit, or be in the flesh and without any hope at all. Now, you may wonder what this has to do with your question. Once you start looking into this with an open mind (it takes a while to research this using the bible) you will most likely see that there is just one hope for Christians, that which you still associate with the "anointed". In fact all Christians are anointed. (Not all who say they are Christians, but who live accordingly.) The parable about the FDS is an encouragement to all Brothers of Christ to care for one another. It's aimed at every Christian individually. There is no "class" of some vague FDS. The Society has misused this parable to setup a system of authority and control over "the other sheep" which is in no way in harmony with scripture.

    I think this proves quite clearly that the WTS has never taken on the role of a prophet and never required that its readers view them as such.

    You might want to read about the Walsh Trial in 1954. The Society perceives itself as a Prophet quite clearly, whether you want to accept that or not. And they expect you and I and any Witness to unquestioningly follow and obey their words and interpretations. Had their prophetic predictions come true in the past decades it would be okay to follow them, due to their failure following them is dangerous.

    The Society's own explanation who the FDS is falls short. If the FDS is made up of all anointed, then why do the folks in Brooklyn have an attitude regarding them as can be seen here:

    "Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors—including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance—might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know. The Governing Body does not keep a list of all partakers, for it does not maintain a global network of anointed ones." (w11 8/15 p. 22 Questions From Readers) You see, the Governing Body really is the FDS if you read between the lines of the publications, but they have no interest in saying it plainly, I guess the are not yet bold enough to do so. They do make clear though that they have no interest in cooperation with all those who should make up the FDS worldwide. Strange, eh? The FDS really is the Governing Body on a power trip. Besides that, if anointed are to dispense food at the proper time, why are mostly non-anointed responsible for writing publications? There should be plenty of anointed to do that job, also younger anointed ones.

    Honestly, I think it's tactless to come to this forum and start argueing about this, expecting people here to prove you wrong. Do your own reserach, without bias and without Watchtower reading glasses. It seems that you are not really seeking an answer about who the FDS really is, but in typical JW manner you want to help others get rid of the straw in their eyes, while you obviously can't see clearly.

  • chrisjoel

    Emery's post was a bunch of miscellaneous quotes from books that I do not have the time to verify/question and it was not a scriptural refutation anyway. Mere apostate rhetoric, as is so common on this board

    Apostate rhetoric? Seriously?

    Are you seriously going to sit here and pontificate your views without giving serious thought to Emerys post by passing it off as mere apostate conjecture.? When you know damn well you dont want to deal with it. Do yourself a favor and read In Search Of CHristian Freedom by Ray

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