Ladies and Gentlemen, I have started the troll clock on Recovery at 1:52 PM central time, 8/30/2012.
Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?
by Recovery 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Indian Larry
Ok. Sorry about early posting. Anyway, you posted:
Tell me why I should ignore Jesus's command at Luke 21:8. I am not telling you to ignore Jesus' command. I am telling to examine the subject in context. By this logic, if we were first century Christians we should not have listened to the apostles since they claimed to have authority from Christ himself. It is a relative command (to the context), not a definite one.
My answer is: Luke 21:8 says :He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.
You can not compare the “slave” to the apostles. The apostles had evidence of holy spirit. They could heal, raise people from the dead etc. That is evidence.
On the other hand the evidence that the FDS is actually who they say they are is non-existent. Remember Deuteronomy 18:20-23, this is how Jehovah tells us to determine if a prophet is true or not. The FDS fails that test. And yes, it is true they do have many quotes in writing where they claim that they are not prophets, but you and I both know I can find quotes where they compare themselves to Jeremiah and Ezekiel, even quotes where they come right out and say they are prophets.
Battling quotes leads to nowhere though. The WTBTS claims to be God’s only “spirit directed” organization. How can you be spirit directed and not inspired. They want to have it both ways. They want to claim to be “God’s sole channel of communication” and at the same time say they what they are speaking is not from God. Give me a break.
As far as Nathan, as I said earlier I am open minded and I will read those passages in the bible tonight with an open mind and see if there is indeed a parallel.
As far as Mark 13:31, did not CT Russel and JF Rutherford both say that Jesus was present in 1874? Yes they did. How does Jesus say to respond to teachings like that which are not true? He says “do not believe it”. You know what? That is good enough for me. Are you saying that we should do other than what Jesus clearly says to do?
I am at work right now gotta run, but I will read the section about Nathan and post later.
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DATA-DOG
I know you have a lot of questions to answer, so I will be patient because you have not answered all mine. And you are quoting WT articles, not using just the bible. Also do you believe that John 8:31 is true? Do believe that the GB has never went beyond what is written, or have they violated John 8:31? I know this is a lot to think about, but here is something to meditate on:
If you were on an Island in the middle of the Pacific, and a crate containing books washed ashore, one of them being a Bible, could YOU gain salvation by reading just God's word even though you may never have seen a Bible? Is 1 Timothy 3:16 really true? Or would Jehovah need to send you a crate each month containing the latest issue of the Watchtower and Awake magazines in order for you to gain life?
Also, there is an audio of Fred Franz's adress to a Gilead class where you discusses the idea of a first century Governing Body, perhaps someone will post it, because I don't know how.
To everyone else: Don't be to hard on Recovery. He needs to stop reading the WT and Awake and stop using the CD-Rom for a couple of months, and then only read the Bible. Then just go to the CD-Rom from time to time to confirm the contradictions between the two.
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leavingwt
The claim:
"I think this proves quite clearly that the WTS has never taken on the role of a prophet and never required that its readers view them as such."
What WT actually published with their printing presses and distributed worldwide in dozens of languages.
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King Solomon
"Spirit-directed, AND uninspired"?
Notice how both words include the same root of 'spire': WTBTS is trying to create a semantic distinction that simply doesn't exist... I cannot think of a more stellar example of double-speak, taking both sides of a claim to be able to flip-flop at will, when the need arises.
When someone does that in physics (eg the duality nature of light, possessing properties of both waves AND particles) its because it's required in order to understand the full range of observations. In theology, it's evidence of intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.
Edit it seems 'recovery' doesn't understand that his ability to edit posts expires after 30 minutes. I'm guessing the name choice of 'recovery' is not accidental, just not sure if it's self-prescriptive or a documentation of his current status.
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james_woods
Troll clock still running.
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DATA-DOG
@ leavingwt,
That's awesome! I just checked the CD-Rom and that one snuck through without getting edited!! Maybe Recovery would benefit from a list of articles that have been altered from the originals before they made it to the bound-volumes or CD-Rom? Has Recovery ever wondered why the ENTIRE library of publications are not available for everyone? From a technology standpoint it would be simple. Surely the spiritual food contained therein would be refreshing to all those hungering for truth!
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sabastious
WHEN PROVEN TO BE SCRIPTURALLY WRONG PASTE, PASTE, PASTE RHETORIC TO PAINT A BAD MENTAL IMAGE OF JW'S AND TO DISTRACT FROM THE DISCUSSION. Post reserved for future response to objections. - Recovery
It's interesting that you accuse us of deliberately painting a negative picture of "JW's" when you say something like this:
I do not have the time nor the desire to watch apostate videos on Youtube. I've already done so in the past countless hours and it was a waste of time and a dissapointment since I was expecting the almighty exGilead graduate to actually set me straight scripturally. If there is a scriptural reference you believe that debunks the FDS doctrine, post it, and we will examine it. - Recovery
This sounds a lot like you are trying to paint a "mental image", as you put it, in order to distract from the content in the videos I posted.
-Sab
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sabastious
I showed you failed to post a single scripture (which is obvious from your first page of response) and you merely flouted your own interpretation about why the interpretation is wrong. I asked for scriptures and you failed to provide them. You then referred me to videos, instead of presenting scriptural arguments. If my eyes are playing tricks on me, please post your scripture and I can discuss it in detail when I am able to post again.
You fail to grasp that the parable in question is Scripture, as we agree. We disagree that the Bible in whole is infallible, but we agree that the Book of Matthew is Scripture and therefore any interpretation, including but not limited to mine, of the parable of the Faithful and Wise Steward is a scriptural argument as it uses Scripture. What you seem to be asking for is an interpretation that cross references with other books of the Bible Cannon. Therefore I brought up the Torah when I mentioned "manna" which is also Scripture, as we agree. Your assertion that I have somehow failed to provide a scriptural argument is simply false.
You are refuting something that has nothing to do with the argument.
The range of validity of the documents in question is very much pertinent to this discussion. If the documents in question are fallible then an entirely different methodology of explanation is required than if the documents were infallible. I don't mind operating within the limits of such an assumption as an infallible document, but realize that this is your request and is in no way required for an accurate understanding of Matthew 24 and the entire Bible Cannon for that matter.
Let me make this clear: When I asked for scriptures refuting JW's point, I thought it was seemingly obvious that the Bible would be regarded as the infallible guide which would show us what we should believe and what we should not. I'm sorry if it is too difficult for you to put those pieces together. If this is a scriptural discussion, why would even consider the notion that the Bible isn't God's word? If that's what was assumed when the question was asked: why are we even debating it in the first place?
Because operating on the notion that the Bible is fallible does not destroy the validity of the Bible, it just humanizes it. Under no feasible conditions could the books in the Bible remain unscathed from the revisionists of history. I understand your faith, as I used to have it, but revisionist sin has always been allowed to exist. Look at the Watchtower, for example. They are constantly changing their past.
Yes, you correctly bolded my true intentions. My true intentions are to find a more scripturally sound argument/refutation of what JW's believe. I did not even start the thread proving anyone wrong, I just want them to prove JW's wrong. The burden of proof is not on the WTS and ME to start with since all the participants in this board are well familiar with the proof the WTS uses. They object to that proof, now I'm asking them to show me why.
You are asserting that the Watchtower has a sound doctrine in the first place. This is a false assumption and it taints your entire argument. That's why the easy test is tofollow the scriptures that mention a examination of the fruits. The main focus should be there and not on some mystical identification of a "faithful slave class" and following them like lemmings. Be a good person by identifying what society needs and fill that role. FEED THE CHILDREN! The Watchtower doesn't do any of this and do not feed the children of God at all therefore they cannot be the faithful slave, but that doesn't matter because it's not identifiable anyway. It's not for us to affirmatively identify the "class." It is for us to examine the fruit before we eat. It's a simple concept that is totally being blown out of proportion by the Watchtower and it's adherents.
I am simply calling a spade a spade.
If you had the desire to watch the "worthless apostate videos" I gave you, you'd see that the Governing Body, leaders of the Watchtower Society, are known criminals. I am calling a spade a spade, they are criminals who dodge laws, which have caused pain and anguish for many, and it's proven in court documents. The videos I gave you are just the more recent scandals the Watchtower is involved with. Jesus is not confined to the limits of man made corporations and Jesus is not a criminal. His congregation is made up of all peoples, tribes, nations and tongues (psst! There's a scriptural reference for you, you missed the first time I mentioned it), NOT just the Watchtower Society.
I have given the members of this board quite a considerable amount of my time as my quite lengthy posts show since I have to respond to 15 or 20 people every time I log back on. That is far more than you did for me. I do not have the time to watch private interpretations of the Bible on Youtube, by an apostate, a JW, a Baptist, a Muslim, or anyone. I am not biased I am just honest when I tell you I don't see the appeal of it when it takes so much of my already limited time.
I don't think you have given us a chance at all. Your attitude is dismissive and dogmatic. Did you write the article entitled "Who Really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave -Letting the Bible Interpret Itself" or was that a copy/paste? Because it had a total and provable lie about Jehovah's Witnesses in it. What's the difference between posting a video and a premade article? You seem to hold others to standards that you do not hold yourself to.
Again, sebastious wants me to watch a video for his 'proof'. Why can't he type out his arguments like the rest of us? Is it because he knows he doesn't really have an argument and just wants to keep engaging in the discussion so he feels like he's winning?
I did type my arguments and you dismissed them out of hand then you said I was arrogant and thought I was "mighty"? It's fascinating to see the psychological projection at work. You would have to indeed be mighty to be able to dismiss entire arguments out of hand like you have in this thread to more than just me. It's like you firmly believe are operating with information that we don't have or cannot grasp, when in fact it's YOU who are totally missing the solid points that have been made in this thread by many people. You dismiss them as redundant rhetoric! How mighty of you, maybe WE should just be asking YOU questions which you can answer using "real spiritual food" printed in New York. Riiiiight.
-Sab
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Indian Larry
Still at work. Have not had time to read up on Nathan yet. However I do have one simple question.
Who do you believe is the faithful and discrete slave?
I assume from your line of reasoning you believe what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, is that correct?
