Evidence for God...

by tec 251 Replies latest jw friends

  • Flat_Accent

    True, and a statement cannot be made about this either way. I think that was my point. Can't ask why he waited so long to reveal himself, if you don't know whether or not he did wait so long.

    You didn't mention my comment about why God waited all that time to send a redeemer to mankind? And if God sent us important truths earlier in mans history, why did he not protect them and allow later peoples to discover them and use them? We have cave drawings from thousands of years ago, but God couldn't save ancient texts he inspired? There is no way of knowing, but there is also no reason for me to believe it.

    No, I think universal truths could be evidence that they originated from the same source... but carried and spread out, being added to or taken away from.
    Truth could also be learned as per what works and what does not work; though few civilizations actually follow the golden rule, or turning the other cheek (not repaying wrong with wrong), even though their spiritual leaders might understand these things.

    Go to any corner of the globe and you'll have a moral obligation not to murder or steal, and to do good to others. All cultures have similar rules to follow, but their spiritual beliefs are usually quite different. One may ask you to pray 5 times a day, facing a certain direction. Another will tell you to perform a sacred dance for the crops to grow (as NC said earlier). Why is there variation in one but not in the other, if the two are tied, and are supposedly from the same source? If there is only one moral truth, then shouldn't there be only one spiritual truth as well? Unless God has said ''worship me however you want''. But what's your evidence of this?

    No, purgatory is a detail or interpretation about the spiritual. So it is not a new idea. The spiritual had already been conceived in order for someone to attempt to define it... such as in purgatory, or nirvana, or heaven - whomever's version. It is this original conception of the spiritual that I am speaking of, with no other spiritual thing or knowledge to build it upon. A completely new concept.

    It's still a supernatural concept which came from purely human imagination. Just like those different ideas of heaven. They can't all be right, can they? If all religions stem from a single source, then the further back in time one goes, there should be a visible trail that leads back to the original, ultimately correct view. So what about the Egyptian view of the afterlife? It came well before the Christian adaptation of heaven, but it's still completely wrong. Unless God wants to keep us in the dark about the real afterlife and so has made a motley crew of ideas to confuse us, there's no reason for all these different views. Completely nonsensical.

    Yes, that is a simple statement. But then why would Krauss laugh that theologians state, see, life did not come from nothing? It is the same thing that he is saying. It was conflicting. Hence my confusion.

    Because the theologian's view is 'God is the something'. In actuality Krauss is merely saying, on a scientific level, nothing cannot exist.

    I actually did assume this... I thought it was what science had discovered. So then, eternal God or eternal universe was on equal footing. Something was eternal, and this concept could not be used to help prove or disprove anything. But science no longer states this, has decided that this was a mistake, at least as pertains to this universe. Instead, the universe now had a beginning, a cause. Even if there are multiple universes, one after another, that leads back to a cause for the first one. Because that seems to be how the physical world runs... a beginning and an end.

    Just apply Occam's Razor to your thinking, that's all I'm asking. Does one perform less mental gymnastics contemplating an eternal universe, or an eternal omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent creator? Yes space and time began at the Big Bang, our universe had a beginning and will end at some point (by eternal I was referring to the possibility of universe cycles; Big Bang/Big Crunch/Big Bang etc). It's quite possible there will only ever be one universe and this is it. God is still MIA though. And just because on earth, causality works in such a way, does not mean the same laws apply to the universe. But, in my opinion there isn't enough known to state anything of the above with certainty, and i'm not an astrophysicist so I can't have a real discussion with you about it.

    You're not providing any evidence to make me think God had to be the first cause, if a first cause was needed at all.

    The last part was something you mentioned a couple of pages back. Someone said there are scientific inaccuracies in religious texts, and you argued against that point. I wanted to see examples.

  • Knowsnothing

    How did life begin without God? -Bio

    Bio, I will respond, albeit you are being unfair. I asked you first. The answer is I don't know, and science currently doesn't have the tools to determine that. Does that excuse creationists to boldly claim goddidit? No. Yiu are in the same boat my friend. You know no more than I do. Now, if you have a specific explanation on how life was formed by God, by all means please share.

  • still thinking
    still thinking
    Why is God (or the spiritual) the explanation? Why not something else? Why that connection and leap?

    Why not God? and what leap? Do you honestly think it is impossible that humans could invent gods and the god concept?

    Add into the mix, experiences like New Chapter described about sleep paralysis...which I have also experienced...and you would find it hard to come to any other conclusion that spirits or something in another realm are real....that is before science could explain it.

    There is nothing about the god concept that could not have been created by man.

    All it takes is a few strange dreams, maybe a dead relative visiting you in your sleep imparting some useful information...some strange things happening that you can't explain, like predicting things or deja vu, and you are on your way to a god concept because if you have no other explantion for these things it would make sense to think something else has caused them...something outside yourself. Once you start to create something outside yourself you can attribute all sorts of powers and attributes to this something. It can take on a life of its own. It can be whatever you want it to be.

    Not understanding weather would be a breeding ground for creating a god...what or who is this thing in the sky that makes bolts of lightning come down? oooooh the power...the force. What makes it rain? Something must make it rain??? Those clouds...how do they stay in the air? something powerful must be up there....oooohhh....look...something shiny!...LOL

  • James Brown
    James Brown

    I think there is evidence of God.

    But what God is and what God wants is highly debateable. And religion and man manipulate

    what God is and may or may not want, ultimately for power.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    James Brown....Religion and man manipulate what god is and wants because they invented him.

    And there you have added another reason to invent a god....power and control.

    If people attributed all the strange happenings like weather to supernatural forces...you know that some clever bugger is going to capitalise on it and add more meaning to god...and value.

  • NewChapter

    Add into the mix, experiences like New Chapter described about sleep paralysis...which I have also experienced...and you would find it hard to come to any other conclusion that spirits or something in another realm are real....that is before science could explain it.

    And if you've experienced it, you know how absolutely real it is. And yet, it is not. So our BRAINS have created this experience, but someone would aregue that our brains cannot create a god? I had not even thought of Deja Vu, but yes. Things our brains do. The funny part, at least to me, is even with plenty of explanations, there are STILL people that believe that sleep paralysis is a doorway to the spiritual. They do what Tec is doing. They acknowledge the science behind it, but then they say they are blessed to have an opening to the 'other side'.

    All that with full knowledge, they still attribute it to the spirit realm. We are not rational beings. We constantly look for patterns. It's how our brains are wired, and its a good thing, but it can backfire. Think about gambling. Gamblers are notorious for seeing patterns---for giving significance to a random series of events (I'm on a roll). Yet these remain random.

    Part of me thinks that such an argument is just made in fun. Part of me is disturbed that it could be made in earnest. But I have a god to build, and it has reached a point where ALL things must be taken on faith, and evidence and fact have no place in such a conversation.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    The funny part, at least to me, is even with plenty of explanations, there are STILL people that believe that sleep paralysis is a doorway to the spiritual

    LOL New Chapter...I did for years until I started posting here on JWN a year ago and had the conversation about my 'spiritual' experience on another thread. I was pretty peeved when people told me it wasn't what I thought........but that inspired me to look it up and find out about it...and guess what...it explained it all.

    If there really was another world....then sleep paralysis is it!

  • InterestedOne
    Me: Sentient beings who create things are real. The universe is real. Combining them, by imagining a sentient being who created the universe, is building upon two things you have seen and known. Why is the imagining of a sentient being who created the universe not the same thing as imagining a man who can fly?

    tec: Perhaps, yes. But then wouldn't that sentient being be a natural being... as in a physical construct? Rather than something of the spirit?

    I see your point that each component of my analogy is physical. If I understand your original notion correctly, you are saying that the fact that people can imagine a non-physical realm populated with non-physical sentient beings such as god, angels, demons, ... is evidence that a non-physical realm exists. You find it impossible that humans would imagine such a realm on their own.

    I am saying that I think it is possible for humans to imagine such a realm on their own. It is called abstract thinking. For example, not only can I imagine the idea of a non-physical realm, let's label it "spiritual" or "supernatural," inhabited by non-physical sentient beings, I can also imagine a "super-spiritual" realm that is beyond the spiritual realm, inhabited by super-spiritual beings that cause miracles to occur in the spiritual realm that make the regular spirit-beings wonder what happened. The fact that I can imagine such a thing is not evidence for its existence. Why do you consider it to be evidence?

  • NewChapter

    If there really was another world....then sleep paralysis is it!

    ABSOLUTELY! LOL Now here is the weird thing. I experienced it for over 30 years (started as a child) before I had an answer. And I was always a believer. but for some reason, I never connected it to the spiritual---even at 10-years-old. Which doesn't make sense. I never read anything about it or heard anything about it. I kind of knew it was not a typical dream, but I just absorbed it. So I was watching Discovery or something and they had a program on it. I was just blown away and got the shivers when I heard other people's descriptions. I was actually afraid to go to sleep that night, because I worried that watching the program would activate it in some way, and it had been pretty regular for some months by that time.

    It comes and goes. My nighttime world is full of imaginary things (LOL). I will never understand why I never concluded, like soooo many others, that it was something otherworldly. Stubborn, I guess.


  • tec

    You find it impossible that humans would imagine such a realm on their own.

    I find it unlikely.

    Almost anything is possible. Dreams and hallucinations and such MIGHT give one rise to consider another realm. I consider that a very big might, especially concerning hallucinations or the above sleep paralysis mentioned. Because making that leaps depends on the assumption that most ancient people were more willing to accept supernatural explanation, over a natural explanation. Or that most were even more prone to leap to a supernatural explanation to begin with. That is a big assumption... unless perhaps this sense of the spiritual is inherently a part of us, making it easier to turn to or accept this as a possible explanation. Because most of us had some sense of it.

    NC also shows that not all, even of those who believe in the spiritual, make that leap concerning dreams and hallucinations. Because that sense of the spiritual goes beyond dreams, beyond hallucinations. More than these lead man to look up or around at the open sky, the stars, the universe, the desert...whatever... and feel more, feel connected. It is that sense that seems to give rise to the spiritual. The dreams and such might grant some 'confirmation' of that sense, but that sense was within us to begin with. Even now. Which is how we so easily, and so fully, made that leap.



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