by tec 251 Replies latest jw friends
Perception is the acknowledgment that love and purpose, while not tangible phyiscally, are realities of the human experience ...ATJ
Actually, I prefer to keep my faith to myself. Treasure it, so to speak. But this does nothing to build up the Body of Christ, and well, I think I am called to do that. To share what i am given, in the hopes of helping someone else who might want to hear, or belong to, or follow Christ. It is why I joined this forum in the first place. I saw a misunderstanding, (naively) thought that if others just understood what I understood, then the misunderstanding would be cleared up, and something that was impeding some from going to Christ would be diminished.
You have helped a great deal on this forum Tammy. So much so that you'll never know the full extent. If there is one thing I have learned while posting on this forum it's that people have to work out their own world views (which is another term for salvation) whether that be by faith or reason it should be worked out. People like you can help with that process, but as you know you can't work it out for them.
Philippians 2 12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
^ The with "fear and trembling" part is very interesting to me. It depicts a process from the heart. So if a world view is stated as to be worked out with one's heart then it should be considered legitimate. If someone says "I require scientific evidence for God in order to believe in him" and it comes from their heart, then how can we judge?
Tec, do you believe atheism is wrong under any circumstance? Why or why not?
-Sab
Actually, I prefer to keep my faith to myself. Treasure it, so to speak. But this does nothing to build up the Body of Christ, and well, I think I am called to do that. To share what i am given, in the hopes of helping someone else who might want to hear, or belong to, or follow Christ. It is why I joined this forum in the first place. I saw a misunderstanding, (naively) thought that if others just understood what I understood, then the misunderstanding would be cleared up, and something that was impeding some from going to Christ would be diminished.
Why does that make me feel less like I am having a discussion with someone...and more like I am being preached too...I really wish you hadn't pointed that out sab...
tec, I will leave our discussion here, as I am quickly reaching a point where I will not be understood. Your belief, evidence is highly personal and stems from an undifferentiated combination of feeling and reason. You bob in to scriptures now and again (The certainty of things not seen). For those who have embraced reason as a more certain worldview, your testimony will not be sufficient. Your reasons are personal and unclear. Like peering through murky water.
I celebrate your example of an unorthodox Christian, living according to your highest ideals. I think who you are is a stronger testimony than any attempts at presenting evidence.
Here is my reality... All kidding aside, my irreverant Thor worship not withstanding:
I was raised a dubbie. I have always believed in the desert god. Until i 'woke up' and started to see through wt lies and controll. It makes me question everything, albiet i think in a healthy way. I do still believe in .... Something. I mock and tease about Thor because its as good as any other god, frankly, and i have seen no more or less proof of Thor than any other god.
That said.... You say you hear his voice, he talks to us all.... Without the frame of referance created by the bible, how would someone ever come to the conclusion that one man died for all, that god sent his son to earth, that he resqued the hebrews from egypt to protect the blood line that son would be born through etc etc etc...? Is the voice that clear, that specific, to provide that level of detail?
Its why i asked about native americans and orientials and the like earlier. They all followed differant paths to satisfy their sprituality, and didnt end up in similar place to the hebrews. If god was speaking to them, why didnt they end up somewhere close, spritualy speaking? What makes the voice the hebrews heard the "right" or accurate representation of what god was/is saying? If god speaks to all, why dont all hear the same thing? If faith in christ is or was nessary, why send him only to the hebrews?
I hope you understand tec, im not being flippant only questioning and being, as much as i can, logical. I have always respected you and of course continue to do so :-)
Why does that make me feel less like I am having a discussion with someone...and more like I am being preached too...I really wish you hadn't pointed that out sab...
A Christian preaching? Do lobbyist lobby?
-Sab
LOL Sab....
I have sleep paralysis. I have seen dancing devils, flames, strange lights, I've floated, rocked, and even flown.
All of these things were very real as they happened. I'm just a normal, natural human, and unnatural things seemed to be happening to me. I've felt presences, felt them sit on my bed (my body seemed to roll toward the weight).
I could have interpreted these things many ways. To suggest that humans were incapable of thinking up a spiritual world is just silly. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but it is the silliest notion I have heard yet. We are rich and creative creatures. We are capable of conjuring up so much, and we are often victims to logical fallicy.
If I were a prehistoric human that had such experiences, with no answers, how would I have interpreted them? I WAS FLYING for goodness sakes. I would have never seen a human fly. Yet I flew. So I flew in this realm with dancing figures and fire. It is NOT a huge leap to read more significance into such an experience than it deserved. There is no significance. None. It is a phenomena that has been explained by science. But before there was science, there was only my imagination to answer me.
NC
Are these not enough to construct a god from our imagination? Are these nothing?
Those qualities of emotions are enough to put emotion onto a god. But not to create the god or spirit or spiritual in the first place.
But where does this information come from? Where was your starting point? How did you know to start there?... nc referring to the comment of god having no beginning, no ending
Something has always been. A beginning requires a cause... to start it; hence: beginning.
Eternal is no beginning... no ending.
Sentient beings who create things are real. The universe is real. Combining them, by imagining a sentient being who created the universe, is building upon two things you have seen and known. Why is the imagining of a sentient being who created the universe not the same thing as imagining a man who can fly?
Perhaps, yes. But then wouldn't that sentient being be a natural being... as in a physical construct? Rather than something of the spirit?
Are these supernatural? Were they considered so? Add all the human emotions to natural events....lightning, thunder, drought, tornados, earthquakes, volcanic erruptions...etc etc......stir them up and wallah....GOD!
Why is God (or the spiritual) the explanation? Why not something else? Why that connection and leap?
I find it very curious, is all. On its own, perhaps not as much, but it is not evidence that is on its own. (okay yes, for me, unless someone can demonstrate this kind of leap that I see, then I find it hard to conceive that people could have made this connection to a spirit... over something else... unless we understand spirit because we are spirit within, and so naturally seek it)
I understand how some of you do not see and/or accept this.
1)creation 2)conscience 3) communication
If you take away the intangible perception factor two of the three can be invalidated by all other humans but oneself
I think I understand this enough to agree with it, lol.
You have helped a great deal on this forum Tammy. So much so that you'll never know the full extent. If there is one thing I have learned while posting on this forum it's that people have to work out their own world views (which is another term for salvation) whether that be by faith or reason it should be worked out. People like you can help with that process, but as you know you can't work it out for them.
Thank you Sab. Your words mean a lot to me. I also agree with the sentiment you expressed. People do have to work things out on their own.
^ The with "fear and trembling" part is very interesting to me. It depicts a process from the heart. So if a world view is stated as to be worked out with one's heart then it should be considered legitimate. If someone says "I require scientific evidence for God in order to believe in him" and it comes from their heart, then how can we judge?
Tec, do you believe atheism is wrong under any circumstance? Why or why not?
I don't think it is right or wrong. I think it just... is.
If atheism is not denial of God (as most atheists here are stating), but rather a statement that they do not see enough evidence to believe in God... then it is just how they feel. Neither right nor wrong. It just... is.
No judgment involved.
Jgnat - I celebrate your peace in and of faith as well. I hope I did not put off an air of contention. This was not my intention, if so.
That said.... You say you hear his voice, he talks to us all.... Without the frame of referance created by the bible, how would someone ever come to the conclusion that one man died for all, that god sent his son to earth, that he resqued the hebrews from egypt to protect the blood line that son would be born through etc etc etc...? Is the voice that clear, that specific, to provide that level of detail?
I think the fruits of the spirit.. peace, mercy, love, patience, etc... matter more then the level of detail; which we can only barely grasp as it is. Even then, men who misunderstand pass their misunderstanding on, and people believe them.
If god speaks to all, why dont all hear the same thing?I cannot answer that with certainty. But I do know that not all truly hear who claim or pretend to hear. We also have a tendancy to incorporate things into our own views and/or biases. Takes time to learn to disregard the teachings that are false, and some do not fully break free.
I hope you understand tec, im not being flippant only questioning and being, as much as i can, logical. I have always respected you and of course continue to do so :-)It would never have occurred to me that you were being flippant. I respect you as well, and continue to do so.
A Christian preaching? Do lobbyist lobby?
lol
I think I have missed a page and some posts, but am getting too sleepy now. Plus my house is quiet and lulling me to sleep, lol.
See ya'll tomorrow.
Peace,
tammy
Hey Tammy!
Great thread. I have to admire your seemingly boundless energy.
When I look at my children I am instantly humbled by the complexity of the human body, mind and spirit.
I may have been involved in the procreation bit, but certainly not the amazing design and unfolding development.
I see a power and intelligence much higher than my own.
The same for the many parallel universes in the multiverse.
Sure it opens up the door to more questions than answers...
However I believe and sense God has shown me like many other ordinary persons what is really important for now - his personal message to each of us. It is known as the "unabridged gospel" and describes the many priceless free gifts and remedies available to any that would genuinely have him as heavenly father, instead of the judgmental, hypocritical and venomous "god of religion"...
