Tammy this is a discussion you and i have had before.... Im still at at a loss to understand how you know christ. You dont think the bible infalable, yet we only know christ through the bible. You express personal revelations that have revealed christ to you... Fair enough. But if henwanted people to know him then why not reveal himself to everyone that way? Why the bible at all? Its like saying god protect the bible but couldnt protect his name in the bible. You cant cite scripture to prove christ then not accept it when scripture dosent agree. How would a native american know christ without the bible.... How a second centry oriential person? Were they not worthy? Its all so random from a god who claims to want people to him, but fails to reveal himself, except through some indefinable means of personal revilation that noone can prove seem to convey in a meaningfull way... This whole discussion seems to center on a man who claimed to the human son of a desert god. Really..... The human son of a desert god who had to send him to earth to die for us because its the only way he could forgive our "sins"..... Sigh......
Evidence for God...
I need to take a breather, get some stuff done, EE... and I don't want to rush through a response to you. Be back in a bit, though, okay?
Lol i totally understand tammy.... Given the late hour on the east coast im going to bed myself ;-)
Re: needing evidence: I think so. I cannot believe something on the basis of nothing... unless it was instilled within me by God, to begin with. I have considered this as well, however, because I have no memory of a time where I did not believe in Him. And also, I follow out of love for Christ, and therefore God. I am not sure how to separate this from being evidence though. From proof, sure... but anything that causes someone to form a belief is evidence.
You realize from an athiest's point of view that your personal testament is not sufficient. Your feeling and knowing is virtually indistinguishable from delusion. I know, because of my chequered life I have rubbed shoulders with the mentally unstable. I've chatted with the modern incarnation of Mary Magdalene. There were moments when her face glowed with an inner holiness. Then she got tired of the hospital ward and had a cranky phone call with her family.
I would love to believe there is an all-knowing all-powerful God who created us all out of love and knows us personally and loves us and will give us eternal bliss.
Unfortunately, no offense to you Tammy, I'm a realist (mostly a cynic) and I just don't see that being true. I would like to think, if there is a God, he would understand why I would be skeptical and would applaud me for using my brain to use reason and logic. Science and God just don't seem to be able to coexist. I look at evidence is something that is verifiable. If you run enough tests you can either prove something is not the case, or bolster the argument for it. The problem is that the evidence for God is not verifiable. There aren't any tests we can run to prove he exists.
What you have listed is good evidence... for a believer. It is perfectly fine that you believe in God. You are one of the most tolerant Christians I know and you always keep a level head during these types of discussions (which I know how hard it can be). If only more Christians acted in your manner, we would probably all be much better off and it would make for much better debates about this subject.
Maybe you have touched on it before and I've missed it but I think this point relates to the topic at hand. Do you think the idea of creation should be taught in schools? If so, why should it be? I'm interested to hear what you have to say on it.
- Humanity has shown a need or desire to seek out the spiritual. Every single culture that we know of, even those that develop in isolation, has had a belief in god/goddess/creator/spirit (s). From as far back as we can trace the beginning, this has been shown to be true. Explanations have been offered that mankind assigned to a 'god' what mankind could not explain. But I cannot see this as being possible. How can a purely natural species conceive of the spiritual/the supernatural?
- Humans have a fantastic imagination. This is true. But I have never known a single person who can conceive of something that has not been built upon previous knowledge, or observation of the physical world. For instance, conceiving of aliens is easy. There are many planets with various conditions; we know that life exists on planets because we exist upon this one; so there could also be various forms of life suited to the environments of other planets. That is a simple leap built upon established knowledge; it is not a new conception. .....tec
I think Mr Robert Ingersoll says exactly the same as you....except that he applies it to the creation of god....God is not a new concept, just like your aliens. It is simply mans projection of himself and what he sees of the world around him.....
I take a handful of earth in my hands, and into that dust I put seeds, and arrows from the eternal quiver of the sun smite it, and the seeds grow and bud and blossom, and filled the air with perfume in my sight. Do you understand that? Do you understand how this dust and these seeds and that light and this moisture produced that bud and that flower and that perfume? Do you understand that any better than you do the production of thought? Do you understand that any better than you do a dream? Do you understand that any better than you do the thoughts of love that you see in the eyes of the one you adore? Can you explain it? Can you tell what matter is? Have you the slightest conception? Yet you talk about matter as though you were acquainted with its origin; as though you had compelled, with clenched hands, the very rocks to give up the secret of existence? Do you know what force is? Can you account for molecular action? Are you familiar with chemistry? Can you account for the loves and the hatreds of the atoms? Is there not something in matter that forever eludes you? Can you tell what matter really is? Before you cry materialism, you had better find what matter is. Can you tell of anything without a material basis? Is it possible to imagine the annihilation of a single atom? Is it possible for you to conceive of the creation of a single atom? Can you have a thought that is not suggested to you by what you call matter? Did any man or woman or child ever have a solitary thought, dream or conception that was not suggested to them by something they had seen in nature? Can you conceive of anything the different parts of which have been suggested to you by nature? You can conceive of an animal with the hoofs of a bison, with the pouch of a kangaroo, with the head of a buffalo, with the tail of a lion, with the scales of a fish, with the wings of a bird, and yet every part of this impossible monster has been suggested to you by nature. You say time, therefore you can think eternity. You say pain, therefore you can think hell. You say strength, therefore you can think omnipotence. You say wisdom, therefore you can think infinite wisdom. Everything you see, everything you can dream of or think of has been suggested to you by your surroundings, by nature. Man cannot rise above nature; below nature man cannot fall....Robert G. Ingersoll
Tammy have you considered the fact that "Atheist share the burden of proof too!"? Each side must bring proof to their group, otherwise the game is rigged!
1. Cosmological Argument
2. Teleological Argument
3. Fine-tuned Universe
How can a purely natural species conceive of the spiritual/the supernatural?.......tec
specifically....you have answered yourself....super -natural.
larger than life....bigger than us...greater than ourselves....simply ourselves and our world projected and exaggerated to explain what we do not understand.
I think Tammy you would benefit from reading some of the excellent books that deal with the evolution of the mind, they show how various methods of thinking evolved slowly, and once in place allowed various concepts to arise.
The concept of trading between tribes, of growing crops, of writing, all evolved, as did the concept of gods and godesses and spirits etc
Human progress was facilitated by this evolution of the mind, it is my gut feeling that most humans will evolve a mind that does not need any unsubstantiated belief to live happily.
We non-believers are perhaps just a little ahead of the rest of humanity, but you guys , or your offspring, will catch up.