A reason why most religious theological teachings are sociologically dangerous and damaging

by thetrueone 233 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  poopsiecakes

  So lets be clear your answer was, "it's complicated" and made effort to dumb it down for me. This is indicative that you see a class difference between us. I would like to note that this class does not exist, but is only within your mind.

  I would like to sincerely apologize for any inference that led you to think that I see a 'class difference' between us. I think you're a VERY intelligent man, Sab. You write beautifully and I actually really enjoy your posts. My brevity was because I'm not inclined to write paragraphs and paragraphs when a simple breakdown will do. I know that you know the concept of the big bang very well, therefore there was no need to go into detail. Again, if my remark came off as anything other than that, I'm very sorry and hope you see that it was not meant to put you down.

  The answer differs based on where and when you grew up on the planet. For me God evolved like the rest of us. He probably lived a life just as us and suffered similar things and has complete and total understanding of the nature of life from the beginning to the end.

  But where did he come from? I know there's no answer to this from a believer's point of view, and I also know that you've been asked this before. The problem is that you can't base your belief in creation on 'things are too complicated to have evolved' and not go back to this fundamental question. If the Earth and Universe and human race and mosquito colonies are too complicated to have evolved, then how is it that the one who's supposed to have created them evolved?
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  NewChapter

  NC - re dementia comments. Never thought of it like that. Thank you. Hope you don't mind if I share that idea with some friends elsewhere. I love this forum and those that post on it.

  Of course not. You know I've already saved one of your posts because you said something better than I ever could have, and now I intend to use the ideas. So be my guest.

  NC
• 

  sabastious

  But where did he come from? I know there's no answer to this from a believer's point of view, and I also know that you've been asked this before. The problem is that you can't base your belief in creation on 'things are too complicated to have evolved' and not go back to this fundamental question. If the Earth and Universe and human race and mosquito colonies are too complicated to have evolved, then how is it that the one who's supposed to have created them evolved?

  To me it's a difference of scales. You have the animal scale which interfaces with the human scale which interfaces with the god scale. The god scale ends with a single source just as science ends with the theory of light. When we can travel faster then the speed of light then we will know that what caused us has God. I don't believe we will ever travel faster than the speed of light. However, that doesn't mean we wont travel to the other end of the universe, it just means we do it in a very different way. And for the record I am not very intelligent. TD is very intelligent, I am adequately intelligent.

  -Sab
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  NewChapter

  It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. --Carl Sagan
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  thetrueone

  I think its worthy to point that most theological teachings throughout mankind's existence has been locked in place by a semblance of fear,

  ignorance and controlling man made power to the real determinate to mankind himself.

  I would not liked to have lived in any era in the past. Why is that ?

  Is religion or spirituality responsible for the improvement of the human experience over the centuries ?
• 

  tec

  Late to the talk, I am ;)

  I cannot disagree that religion (many of them) have been and are divisive. Someone mentioned that religion or faith divides people into two categories: friends or enemies of God. (Even for me, this is true to a sense... though I consider a person friend or enemy to God based on what they do, rather than what they claim to believe: murder, lie, falsely accuse... not e x actly friends of God; but love one another, follow the golden rule, etc... friends of God.)

  However, I see divisiveness from non-believers as well as people of faith and/or religion... as in the category of non-believers (reasonable, logical, critical thinkers); and believers (superstitious, unreasonable, unable to think critically, fearful, etc) This is a divisive attitude as well, arrogant, and also unproven. Now, there are plenty of arrogant believers, so I am not saying its okay for one and not the other. I just wish some atheists would recognize in themselves, the very thing that they are pointing out in some others.

  As for co-e x istance, we have to accept that we are not going to co-exist by thinking and believing the same things. We do not have a good track record for this...in fact, humanity probably has a 100% track record at failing to think and believe the same, lol. Personally, I think we've got to stop thinking that 'we' are right, and everyone else is wrong. Whenever anyone thinks that they belong to the one group that has it right, and everyone else has it wrong, then there is divisiveness. Even if that 'group' consists of atheists.

  I might not agree with the atheist on the subject of a creator, nor an atheist with me... but as a person of faith, I am not going to attack your morality simply on the basis of your non-belief. Please do not attack my ability to reason, simply on the basis of my faith.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  sabastious

  Well said tammy!

  -Sab
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  thetrueone

  I'm going to just pop this video of Christopher Hitchens here for people who may not have seen it yet.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3YgQfR3sEM&feature=player_embedded
• 

  cofty

  I think you have missed the point of my comment Tec.

  I said that any belief system that divides humanity into god's buddies and god's enemies is corrosive to human relationships.

  How can you really love somebody if you believe they are an enemy of your god?

  Atheists might have scorn for your faith but we don't think you are going to suffer for all eternity because you don't see the world the way we do.

  Please do not attack my ability to reason, simply on the basis of my faith. - Tec

  Of course not, but on this one particular point - the fact that you view "faith" as a virtue - of course I must judge you as irrational.
• 

  NewChapter

  If saying that there is lack of critical thinking required for faith is arrogant, then call me arrogant. Atheists are often accused of being arrogant. no biggie. Are believers incapable of critical thinking in all matters? No. They can break down other problems fine. Will I ever respect their beliefs? No. Why would I? I don't repect belief in alien abduction, gods, magic, or lucky charms. Can I repect a believer and their right to believe? yes, I can---unless they are one of those fundies that try to change public policy and meddle in education---then I don't respect them.

  I think a reason that believers feel like Atheists are arrogant is because they want us to somehow agree that they have good reason for holding their belief. But if we saw good reason for holding belief, we wouldn't be atheists! That's the point. I cannot find good things about it beyond some of the universal good that comes from all groups. While the arguments can be thrown that religion has led to terrible injustice---but religion has led to much good---etc are fun, I believe that putting resources and energy into things other than religion will bring about a great deal more good. While we are building elaborate churches, sending out missionaries, printing religious material, and building great big crosses---people are suffering.

  So we coexist. Atheists watch as so much energy is put into building up belief in things we don't think exist. We watch as religious people gain more and more political power---and then scream persecution when they don't get their way. We watch as they try to stunt the minds of children, setting up prison cells in their brains around which they are forbidden to step, and we get called arrogant.

  But if we keep speaking out, secularism will have a greater influence----not to subdue and destroy religion---but to keep it in it's place---personal. We just need to keep speaking and supporting each other to bring about a freer society---for believers and non-believers. And in the meantime, society will trust atheists about as much as they trust rapists. How dare we be arrogant. LOL