IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?

by still thinking 778 Replies latest jw friends

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Lozhasleft...Thank you for taking the risk of being ridiculed, and I sincerely hope you are not.

    Can you clarify as to what was involved in what you refer to as being a spiritual experience (anointing).

    tec...I have inlaws that also say that they have had things made clear or known to them...but I just can't seem to get a clear understanding of what they mean and how. I just notice you posted something similar on another thread you started.

    I have had similar experiences and when I truly believed in a god I attributed these experiences to him...now I wonder if it was just my subconscience sorting things out and working out solutions.

    sizemik....do you no longer have any feeling that there might be something there? Or has that gone now?

  • cofty
    cofty

    I guess I could deny God and rely on my own reliance and understanding - paulnotsaul

    In practical terms how would that look different from relying on god?

    When I was a believer I prayed about things, thought long and hard about my dilemma and then did what I thought god was leading me to do. Then I thanked god for his help.

    Now I think long and hard about my dilemma and do what I think is the best thing. Then I pat myself on the back if it goes well and take responsibility if it doesn't.

    No difference really.

  • tec
    tec

    I have had similar experiences and when I truly believed in a god I attributed these experiences to him...now I wonder if it was just my subconscience sorting things out and working out solutions.

    Like a "eureka" moment?

    Yes, I have had those too, and those could be my brain working those things out on some things. I have asked myself this, and forced myself to look at it.

    But hearing the answer laid out (in words) is much different than that. Since I recognize the feeling of calm and peace and quiet and sureness with those, that can sometimes help me to define understandings that have been worked out by my brain, or given to me.

    Like some above, I also cannot deny the things that I have heard and been given.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    Still thinking the experience was discussed in depth on my introductory thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/191090/1/Hello-this-is-my-story

    In short, I actually felt a baptism of my heart in holy spirit. I know that probably isn't easy to imagine, but it's the simplest way to describe it.

    Tammy - Yes we did, how cool is that?

    Loz x

  • paulnotsaul
    paulnotsaul

    Cofty, I see what your sayin. For me it goes a little deeper. I love to get my ego stroked and patted on the back but at the end of the day I give all the glory back to God. peaceC paulnotsaul

  • sizemik
    sizemik
    sizemik....do you no longer have any feeling that there might be something there? Or has that gone now?

    Good question. I have feelings like that about a lot of things which remain unexplained . . . moreso than when I believed in God. So the feeling of wanting explanations is more intense than ever. I haven't become apathetic, nor do I believe in "nothing". I'm just not ready to fill the void with my own tailor-made, intransigent "belief" for which there is no evidence.

    If some have had a genuinely supernatural experience that convinces them 100% in the existence of God . . . then I envy them. I simply haven't.

  • Star tiger
    Star tiger

    Hi,

    I like the heavy metal group Ayreons take on things, not an anti semitic band, but with their album the Universal Migrator a self seeding starship to deliver life to other planets with no guilt, lol!

    Regards,

    Star Tiger

  • Flat_Accent
    Flat_Accent

    For something as big as the existence of God, really nobody definitively 'knows'. Nobody should be pompous enough to say they can know for certain whether God does or doesn't exist. Even Richard Dawkins says he's a 6.9/7 on his Theist/Atheist scale.

    Belief in God relies on faith, which is suspension of the evidence. One dictionary defines faith as 'based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.' Most christians rely on personal experience, anecdotal stories, or spiritual revelation as 'evidence' that God exists. However, on a scientific level, the idea of a God cannot be tested. This is a section from a very good article called 'Weighed and Found Wanting'. You can probably find the .pdf on here, but anyway:

    Clearly, different evaluative criteria are required to determine the merit of a theory. Four features must be assessed: explanatory scope, simplicity, plausibility and testability. . . In light of these criteria, supernatural explanations are ruled out of scientic investigation. This is not a prejudice against supernatural causes, but an inherent limitation of science. Why? Because supernatural causation, or claiming 'God did it' as a scientific conclusion, fails by nearly every measure of what constitutes a good theory.
    It is reasonable to propose that God has maximal explanatory scope, but the nature of the explanation is vague. When God causes an animal to exist, is it the same process as when he creates an angel, or a planet? How does this process work? While it is easy to answer any mystery by invoking an omnipotent power, and thereby yield a huge explanatory scope, upon scrutiny these explanations quickly fracture into many ill defined sub-explanations.

    Simultaneously, these smaller explanations reduce the simplicity of supernatural causation. Additionally, even if a minimal Creator is the only thing being proposed, this is not the type of God the majority of people believe in. Most religions incorporate an active God who intervenes in history, reacts to human actions, and makes proclamations about morality and the afterlife. All of these extra details lead to a very complex theory.

    What about plausibility? Supernatural beings are, by definition, not natural and do not obey natural laws. Hence, all current natural knowledge is useless for evaluating the actions of a nonnatural actor. Because the supernatural is not constrained by the natural, it is impossible to determine plausibility. Does God creating life fit in with what supernatural beings are known to do? No one can say, because there is no background knowledge about the supernatural.

    The final, and most important element of science is testability. Scientic claims must be testable, but God is not testable. Individual claims about a god may be tested, but it is always possible to invent a special case that sidesteps the evidence. For example, studies have shown that intercessory prayer does not help hospitalized people heal faster. [19] However, believers can simply assert that God does not heal people when they are part of a scientific study, thereby avoiding all objective empirical methods. Similar arguments can be used to avoid any piece of evidence. One can also continually move the divine back one step to maintain supernatural causation. Perhaps someone believes that Zeus causes lightning. A scientist could explain that lightning is actually static electricity resulting from the friction of particles of precipitation in a cloud. The believer can simply incorporate this information by claiming that static electricity is important, but that Zeus is the real "cause" of the lightning. It is impossible to scientifically validate or invalidate this theory because it is beyond the methods of science.

    At the Deist level, Gods attributes are unknown. However, the supposed qualities of the Theistic God, given to us through 'inspired' books like The Bible and Koran, CAN be tested. It's in this area that the God idea falls flat, at least in my opinion.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    cofty...

    "Know" is a word that believers like to use because "believe" doesn't sound certain enough.

    That is exactly why I came unstuck...when pushed about what I believed...I didn't know for sure, I can honestly say I believed it to be true.

    tec...I can realate to that feeling of calmness, I would have that too when I felt God had given me an answer. But, that is still what I am questioning. Was it god? or did I give myself the answer and attribute it to him? Maybe that feeling of calmness was only because I felt/believed god had answered my questions/prayers.

    I am truly not trying to pull your belief apart, more trying to pull mine apart and see if it can be justifably called knowing. I am really struggling with this.

    Lozhasleft...thank you for the link, I will have a look

    iCeltic...I suppose that is what I am looking for...the evidence.

    sizemik...I have had some supernatural experiences, if I can actually call them that....I believed what I felt/experienced to be real. But that is the problem again...I believed it. Were they actually supernatural experiences? Or, did I put the experiences down to that because I had a prior belief in these things?

  • iCeltic
    iCeltic

    Still thinking - I fear you'll be looking a long time.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit