by WTWizard 108 Replies latest watchtower bible
Interesting....
Well, now I simply have to look into that!! It should be relatively easy, as astronomers are capable of working backwards and determining what positions the planets and stars would have been in, during the past...
And then I'd have to cross-reference that with astrology...
Fingers crossed, just in case...
Good luck...I just happened across that last night...so I don't know much about it at all. In fact. It was the first I heard of it...
other than the song...LOL
@zedina and @still thinking
Messiah firstly just means leader, be they a king or priest etc. In the OT every king and priest was a Messiah. The WTS is intentionally avoiding the discussion of this matter so that all Messiah references in the OT are automatically assumed by uninformed xians to mean Jesus. We can see that many are simply not about him.
The classic example if Micah 5:2 which supposedly predicts jesus will be born in Bethlehem. If we read the remainder of the chapter we see JC did not destroy the Assyrians which makes the so called prophecy a fraud.
There were actually many messiahs in jesus time, because the Jews themselves felt that was the time when someone would lead them to victory and freedom. They felt this because of astrology, jesus was born in about 1BC give or take which is exactly when the SUN enters the age of Pisces. At about the same time many opportunists throghout the land tried their luck and did convince many to follow them.
The story of John the Baptist is an example of this. He was not violent but it shows the people were looking for someone.
The Bible mentions many of these groups. Some of the apostles show this link to some of these groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Zealot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_iscariot
There are many strange convulted reasons for the etymology given in the article on wiki. Most scholars nowdays believe Iscariot is just Sicarii another infamous group jumbled up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-men' or later contract-killer, Hebrew ????????) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD , (probably) to an extremist splinter group [1] of the Jewish Zealots , who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea using concealed daggers ( sicae ). [2]
In the name of Judas Iscariot , the apostle who betrayed Jesus, the epithet "Iscariot" is read by some scholars as a Hellenized transformation, by the simplest metathesis , of sicarius. The suffix "-ote" denotes membership or belonging to – in this case to the sicarii. This meaning is lost when the Greek Gospels are translated into modern Hebrew : the Hebrew meaning relates much more closely to the presumed Aramaic of the period which is the actual language in which Judas Iscariot had his name. In Hebrew, Judas is rendered as "Ish-Kerayot," making him a Jew from the townships or " ... from the district". "Judas" (like the Hebrew "Judah") refers to Judean identity, either membership in the state of Judea of the Graeco-Roman period or the Jewish people more generally. Many scholars accept this meaning, pointing out that it indicates that Judas was from the start "the representative Jew" who betrayed Jesus in the Gospel dramatization of events, and we may not have in him an actual person or perhaps only do not know his actual name. It would have been odd to give a person a defamatory name (in the Greek or Latin Gospels) that was not in the native tongue Aramaic, when there were words in that tongue that could mean the same. However, Robert Eisenman (Eisenman p 179) is amongst those scholars today who persist in identifying him instead as "Judas the Sicarios ". He offers as justification that most of the consonants and vowels tally – in Josephus, Sicarioi/Sicarion ; in the New Testament Iscariot .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
Read their stories you will see this was a very violent age or rebellion. Rome had to send three armies to defeat the rebels. They seriously believed these messiahs because they the jews could read the sky and saw that the SUN had entered a new age which was supposed to promise them victory. After they lost they came to accept something was wrong which is when peaceful Judaism and the Talmud was developed.
The fact that the Jews failed to see jesus is because they expected something more dramatic and victoruy and freedom. All we have in the gospels is a guy who walks around and is eventually killed by the Romans.
An interesting point to remember is that Matthew which is supposed to be written with a Jewish audience is the only gospel with the story of the Magi. The Magi or astrologers and the star of bethlehem were inserted to impress the Jews that Jesus was the messiah predicted. Even today in our own language we have the idea that important people are stars, we have just lost the astrological connection but the etymology of the word is still present.
There are many images that show zodiac circles in jewish synagogues from Jesus time. These can be easily found. Even Josephus said the temple in jerusalem had a zodiac within it. The temple of course pointed east to acknowledge the rising sun, if i recall the NWT has a map of jerusalem which shows the template on the eastern side and so on. There are many astrological symbolism inside the temple which is why they never show this in detail or explain in teh WTS.
Notice the many matches, they are an interesting read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology
![[icon]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki_letter_w_cropped.svg) |
In addition to its display in synagogues from the most ancient, such as Beth Alpha, to relatively modern, such as the Bialystocker Synagogue in the Lower East Side of New York City, the zodiac has been shown to correspond to the months of the Hebrew calendar.
For example, the month of Tishrei, beginning in September or October, has the sign Libra, the Scales. Tishrei is the month of Judgment, of Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur where good deeds and bad are weighed against one another. [1]
lets also not forget that the major Jewish holidays also relate to the solistices and equinox.
KABALLAH
Another interesting point is that Kabballah is itself all astrological thought. The seven centers along the body represent the 7 planets, sun and moon etc. This thought is just another direction the religion took using its astrological roots.
@tec
Im glad that tenatively you accept the OT is filled with racism, hatred, violence and a lot of nasty stuff. However Jesus accepted the OT as truth, which makes for an uncomfortable situation. How does one explain the total opposites of your "good" jesus and the "evil/vile" OT. How could gods message be so schizophrenic ?
This also leads to a interesting question was jesus really all that good ? Are you selectively remembering what is convenient ? You seem to think that we can cancel the problem moments by simply ignoring them and saying but jesus did got the next day lets for get about the passed. The scriptures however include those BAD stories for a reason. They shouldnt be ignored.
RACISM
You dont like to admit Jesus was racist, but one has to wonder if the attitudes of Jesus and the OT continues today with the apartheid system in Israel ? I wonder did they really create the two states simply to push the Arabs out because of race ? Are they simply not copying jesus example ?
SLAVERY
How many have suffered because Jesus and the Bible failed to denounce or ban slavery. Of course bad men will ignore this fact, but one cant help but wonder that it made it easier to justify slavery simply because the Good book didnt ban it. This argument can be found and is used by many such as the cotton plant owners in the southern states.
SUBMISSION TO EVIL
Given my previous assertions that Jesus taught stoicism and told his fellowers not to wish freedom and remain obedient slaves, one has to ask is this good ? Is it a good thing to tell victims to just take the pain and never criticize the authority ? We have the same thing in the JW with pedophilia, they tell the kids to shutup and protect the adult. Is there any good in such a policy ?
WAS HE REALLY PEACEFUL ?
Jesus taught a lot of bad wrong things, even his own disciples carried swords. Was he really peaceful or is that an illusion ?
As always i have dozens of scriptures and can provide them upon request.
Im glad that tenatively you accept the OT is filled with racism, hatred, violence and a lot of nasty stuff.
Well, for clarity, let us look at what I did say: "There are books that contain most of these teachings. I never claimed otherwise." Perhaps I should have added that there are some books... but not all of them.
There is also good. Harder to find perhaps, depending upon what you look for and considering the harsher times, but there nontheless.
However Jesus accepted the OT as truth,
Says who? And which parts? The ones that showed the unforgiving and unmerciful God, or the one that showed the forgiving, merciful God? The OT contradicts itself on the nature of God. These misundersandings are one of the reasons we needed Christ to show us the Truth.
Because He is the truth. Not the OT. Not the bible, itself. Christ. He also said 'woe to you scribes'. A scribe is someone who writes and copies scripture. Why would he say woe to them if they were copying and scribing correctly? He also showed that some of the laws had been given, not in accordance to truth, but in accordance to the limitations (hard-heartedness) of the people, themselves. Such as the law on divorce.
Even the OT speaks of the 'lying pen of the scribes' that had handled the law falsely. (Jeremiah 8:8)
He also said not to claim eye for eye, but to turn the other cheek.
Things like this.
This also leads to a interesting question was jesus really all that good ?
He doesn't claim to be, but He certainly is selfless, merciful, forgiving, loving. The healer, the man who taught us turn the other cheek, to not judge others, to forgive and show mercy, to show love to all, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, who called out the hypocrisy of those who 'beat' the meek and the poor and the downtrodden. The man who forgave those who tortured and killed him, asking God to do the same... instead of repaying wrong for wrong. The man who healed even those who were outside the covenant of Israel, based on their faith and his mercy.
Yeah, he's pretty good by my standards.
Are you selectively remembering what is convenient ?
No. Are you? Did you realize that the above verses about lying pen of the scribes were there, and did you consider what they meant, and what Christ meant when he said woe to you scribes?
You have been wrong about what some verses said in our conversations, remember?
You seem to think that we can cancel the problem moments by simply ignoring them and saying but jesus did got the next day lets for get about the passed. The scriptures however include those BAD stories for a reason. They shouldnt be ignored.
I don't ignore them. I do my best to reason through them, according to what Christ taught.
You dont like to admit Jesus was racist,
Because it is not true, and you have failed to prove this. You will continue to fail to prove this, because it is untrue.
How many have suffered because Jesus and the Bible failed to denounce or ban slavery. Of course bad men will ignore this fact, but one cant help but wonder that it made it easier to justify slavery simply because the Good book didnt ban it. This argument can be found and is used by many such as the cotton plant owners in the southern states.
This argument can be made by people who want to justify their own misdeeds and lack of love. They must ignore Christ's teachings to do so, though. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you kind of conflicts with capture and enslave people. Serve others, as He came to serve us kind of conflicts with forcing someone else to serve you.
Before I respond any further to you, could you respond to a few specific things that I asked you now?
If the abrahamic covenant was racist, then why could anyone not of Israel (foreigners, other races) join Israel to become part of that covenant?
If the abrahamic covenant was racist, then why is it written that all peoples on earth will be blessed through him? Gen 12:3
and
You ignore all the times Abraham showed that he had great faith, to say that he had no faith. Is that not dishonest by your standards? You are choosing to see the bad, and in doing so, ignoring the good and what that might do to change the conclusions that you draw. You are searching through the good about Christ to latch onto something that you think is bad (racism), but that has another e x planation, and so you could be wrong in your accusation. If I was accusing someone of racism, and another reason presented itself that disproved racism, I would drop it long before I risked accusing an innocent person of a crime they did not commit. Christ is a healer, the man who befriended the downtrodden, and defended them against the 'pharisees'. The man who preached that we serve one another, show forgiveness, and mercy, and love to both friend and enemy, who taught that it matters nothing what is on the outside, but rather it is what is on the inside of us that counts (which hardly sounds like the teaching of a racist) ... and who also said that we will be judged by the same measure we use to judge.
Peace,
tammy
The hate is strong with this one.
I havent gotten to the point where I believe the bible was designed to stagnate people and
ruin lives yet.
I guess I could believe that if I embraced certain conspiracy theories.
I did watch a video by John Spong today and he said pretty much that what is in the bible
that is not upbuilding to all is not from God.
What is there in the end when its all over but to remember your creator?
Ecclesiastes says everything is meaningless.
As far as I can tell everything is meaningless.
My best guess is we are spirits having material experiences and the bible is a guide to help us
find our way home.
I've found out that when you believe other people's interpretation of the Bible this ruins one's life ... the Bible is a book to be read personally and when you search from your heart a spiritual door of communication with God opens up. The Bible has a living message that somehow resonates with certain spirit in you and teaches you about every aspect of your life, molding the spiritual creature inside... and not everybody has this Spirit ... in Christianity you have to be born again to have this Spiritual relationship with God. Sometimes when I read the bible, it is like reading in 3-D, I am reading, I am looking at the words but something else is talking to me, instructing me, teaching me, making me a better person, making me realize my life written in those pages. The flesh cannot discern spiritual things.
@tec
I will show that while NOT literally all books are disgusting, practically all are. I will present as evidence to show the dramatic contrast with good and bad messages, advice and actions. Please stop being so literal, i will let the numbers show overwhelmingly that the good book is anything but good. If you want to review the stuff that is counted as good and whats counted as bad feel free to follow the links.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/best-book-in-bible-revisited-again.html
When I did that, I found that there are only three good books in the Bible: Ecclesiastes (of course), Proverbs, and James. Three others have a zero net goodness. The other 60 books are all more bad than good.
Other goodness metrics that might be useful are the percentage of marked passages that are good and the net good number of passages per 100 verses. Since there are only three books with a positive net goodness, we can limit our analysis to these three.
Here is a table that summarizes the data.
| Ecclesiastes | Proverbs | James | |
| Good | 80 | 187 | 13 |
| Bad | 1 | 75 | 9 |
| Net good | 79 | 112 | 4 |
| verses | 222 | 915 | 108 |
| net good/100 verses | 35.6 | 12.2 | 3.7 |
| Percent good of (good and bad) highlighted verses | 98.8 | 71.4 | 59.1 |
| good/bad | 80 | 2.5 | 1.4 |
So no matter how you look at it, Ecclesiastes is by far the best (and pretty much the only good) book in the the Bible.
GOOD
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.au/2007/03/best-book-in-bible.html
When we adjust for size, then, Ecclesiastes is by far the best book in the Bible (36.0 good passages / 100 verses).
(The overall average for the Bible is 1.5 good passages / 100 verses.)
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html
Contains a definite list of each and every good message or action in the Bible.
BAD
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/07/bad-books-of-bible.html
Here's my list of the Bible's bad books:
(Let me know if you can find something good in them. If you can convince me, I'll add the verses to the good stuff and remove the book from the bad book list.)
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/worst-books-in-bible.html
Okay, this won't be as easy. There are only three books in the bible that have more good stuff than bad (Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, and James), so the best book had to be one of them. Ecclesiastes won that contest hands down.
But what about the other 63 books in the Bible? Well, let's start with a scatterplot of the net good by the number of verses in each of the Bible's books.
I have included what most people will be stunned by, The Bible is more evil than the Koran both in count as a percentage.
Given the Bible is just over thousand pages, 1214 violent passages is quite an achievement, given each passage is often filled with detail and narrative.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.au/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html
