by Terry 140 Replies latest watchtower bible
All creatures continually make choices. Humans have developed consciousness to a level that allows us to make chooses that go beyond just surviving.
There is something missing. I think what you say is true that animals make choices. But humans think before acting on a choice made. I'm sure animals do not.
My argument regarding this tends to be:
According to the bible, god created 3 "perfect humans" - Adam, Eve, and Jesus. Of those three, 2 of them 'failed' to meet "god's production standards". That's an functional to defective ratio of 1:3, or 66% defective.
Furthermore, we know that many of the "perfect angels" also failed, though the bible does not give an exact ratio, it seems resonable to conclude that the number is again quite large.
Now... if Intel was producing Core chips so that 66% of their chips failed coming off the line, Intel would be a *failure* in the chip manufacturing business, and would no-doubt go bankrupt. Most human creative endevors such as this like to see success ratios over 90%, and perferably in the 95-99% range. If mere humans can acheive 99.9% production yields - You would think that a intelligent god could create perfect creatures that were effective 100% of the time, rather than the majority of them being defective and needing to be destroyed. - Lime
According to the bible, god created 3 "perfect humans" - Adam, Eve, and Jesus
I do not read the Bible so. Does anyone remember a scripture that is saying "perfect humans" other than Jesus? Why do people say "Adam" and "Eve" were perfect? Is it because the Bible says they were created "in God's image"? I think I can be in God's image and also be far far away from perfection. You don't?
Hi N.drew
After careful consideration I have chosen to reply to you and throw in my thread of homespun wisdom. It it is probably just an instinctive reaction :)
All mammals share many traits. A dog will usually choose when to cross a road. If it is excited and forgets to think, its lack of judgement can be fatal. Horses are also highly intelligent animals that are known to make choices.
Many decisions are instinctive survival reactions, but that also applies to humans. We can also make rash decisions and not look before we leap. Just like humans a trained animal shows a greater ability to make better choices.
@Terry: Your WILL is your imagination but your CHOICE results in something that HAPPENS.
Its funny that you anwered your own question without knowing it. You cant judge a person based on WILL, but you can judge a person based on CHOiCE/ACTION. That is why a system like "Minority report" will NEVER work for man. Even a split second of time is enough for a person to forfiet a conceeded thought/ACTION.
Now consider this account
Matthew 21:28 - 31
28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
As we can see, both free WILL and CHOICE/ACTION played their parts here, The first son decided not to go, but ended up ACTING contrary to his WORD/WILL, but the second who WILLED to go ended up NOT ACTING on his CHOICE.
Its the same with God, its our actions and choices that condemn us, not our free will.
Tell that to the dog that drags his master out of a burning room!
Yet another dog ate up his master after he died.
Were that true then insects would be doing GOOD since God created them. Is that what you see in nature? I sure don't!
And this is where all the confusion lies, most people dont realise that animals dont act like humans, they dont think as humans, they dont feel as human.
Humans regard morality , animals dont
Humans love(intimate), animals do not
Animals dont feel compation and suffering as humans do.
Humans feel shame,nakedness, ect. animals to not
Humans think, animals act on instinct irrespective of their actions being wrong or right.
- There is this movie i saw the other day, its about a genius scientist who invents an incredible robot. Now there was a fire outbreak in a building, and the robot was the best choice to undertake the task of rescuing people from the building. It happened that there was one young lady whose was naked and yet stuck in a bath thub due to the fire. Now because the robot did/does not percieve nakedness as humans do, its action of saving the girl rather caused the girl shame, who not being able to stand the mockery of some of the crowd run head on into an incoming vehicle and died. Quite sad how it turned out no?.
That is how it is comparing animal instincts to human's critical thinking. In you Dog situation the man could have been naked, and the action of the dog would still be the same.
@Simon7: Yeah but... freedom is not "You are free to do what you want; but if you don't do what I want, I will kill you"
In that sense all slaves have been "free". They can choose to leave the plantation if they want at any time. But if they don't want to be hunted down and killed they will freely choose to stay on the plantation and follow their master's will.
Well first slave masters dont entirely own their slaves, though most of the time they are under the impression that they do.
Second do you realise that the slave leaving the plantation means theives and bad guys can come and plunder it, putting the owner at a loss?
Tell that to the dog that drags his master out of a burning room!
Yet another dog ate up his master after he died.
Actually, once you are dead you are not the Master. You are food.
@Terry:
1.The only thing Free Will gives inferior beings is the opportunity to screw things up.
Yep exactly, its a matter of choice, so that we know we CAN screw things up if we choose to.
2.God created humans deliberately inferior (to Himself).
Well its not like you want God creating up on par with himself, do you? imagine the chaos
3.God created humans dependant.
And what is the bad in this?
People tend to think that serving God takes away our freedom and the enjoyment this life has to offer, IT DOES NOT.
I own over 400 Asimov books. He is one of my heroes.
However, you can't quote FICTION to prove FACT.
You can, however, use it to illustrate a point, which is what JeffT did in his post.
1.The only thing Free Will gives inferior beings is the opportunity to screw things up.
Yep exactly, its a matter of choice, so that we know we CAN screw things up if we choose to.
Do you know how silly that sounds? Try to be serious.
2.God created humans deliberately inferior (to Himself).
Well its not like you want God creating up on par with himself, do you? imagine the chaos.
Oh, really? Like what we now have is NOT? If we were created identical to God we would all be perfectly good all the time.
3.God created humans dependant.
And what is the bad in this?
You have really never actually thought about it, have you? You just automatically defend it. I'll tell you what is bad about it.
OUTCOME. That is what is bad about it. Look at the entire history of the human race. Do you like that outcome? That is what
the exercise of FREE WILL in a being created INFERIOR actually does.
