Blame the designer and not the product: God and the lame Free Will argument

by Terry 140 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Terry

  Terry, you're a musicion. Let's say we have two people playing Mozart. They are both precise and make no mistakes... but one performance brings you to tears (or whatever emotion), and the other just gives you an appreciation for the music. What is the difference?

  Oh, the Ghost in the Machine has been let loose now:)

  The problem with your analogy is that both musicians are exercising Free Will to the utmost of their ability. So, you aren't really using an example that

  fits the pattern of our discussion. I don't know what you find in the argument you are making that is so appealing to you. Different audiences find different

  performances "wonderful" which is why we have such a variety of musical tastes.

  I play chess against a computer and about half the time, when playing at the highest level, it kicks my ass. This was, not many years ago, thought to be impossible for a mere programmed "machine" to ever do.

  We humans cling to romantic notions of what makes us special. But, honestly it really comes down to our ability to make mistakes!
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  robB

  sorry for the this, I typed a whole lot and it wouldn't show.
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  Knowsnothing

  Quick! Tell me this.

  You walk into a room in which stand two identical Robots.

  One Robot is programmed to always do the right thing at all times because of programming.

  The other Robot DECIDES ITSELF to do the right thing at all times on its own.

  Tell me how you would know the difference and what difference there would actually be??

  Your leading us to a bifurcation. Tsk tsk. The robot that can decide may be influenced by your walking in, or by other factors. The fact that you have observed it in these "laboratory" conditions doing the right the all the time is meaningless.
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  tec

  Ohhh, I thought my analogy was great, lol.

  Then I read Ding's, and realized that his was much better. I will wait for you to answer that one.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  still thinking

  Excellent thread terry...but if you believe in a designer you would be too afraid to say that free will is not a gift...you would be afraid of punishment for being ungrateful.

  Thank you god for allowing us to be so cruel to one another...we know its not your fault, you only designed us that way. What a gift, whats not to be grateful for?

  simon17...that was brilliant! I feel so free now...LOL
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  journey-on

  Please distinguish the terms for me, please.

  You ponder things. I ponder things. You meditate. I meditate. You read and research a variety of sources. I read and research a variety of sources. You come to your beliefs, conclusions, hypotheses. Ditto.

  You started the OP with an "if" (second para.) and continued with many "ifs". I simply followed with my own: if you were God.

  Free Will is something I have pondered, researched, and meditated on, so, just like you, I have some thoughts and conclusions I have come to. I'll explain it this way:

  Free Will is a broad "program", a gift installed to implement freedom to choose in mankind as a whole. It has overtaken instinct alone in our species.

  Simple will is individual. It is like a drop-down menu choice. It is limited by the choices that are available to you. Example: I have the will to work toward a goal. I will make individual choices that will facilitate my achieving that goal. However, my simple will may not be enough. I could become paralyzed. Now, I cannot become the marathon runner I wanted to become....but perhaps, I can choose another field. (Stephen Hawking comes to mind.) I have individual choices.

  So, if free will and simple will mean the same to you, then I guess I misunderstood your OP.
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  robB

  Fixed!!!!

  I think about determinism and free will all of the time. I can't make complete sense of it yet. Here are some things I really think deeply about:

  I was chosen by God before time began. (Eph)

  God will complete the work he has started in me. Election, Justification, Sanctification, Glorification (Rom)

  God overrides people's freedom all over the OT and NT. (Think about the hardening of Pharaoh, think about Jews who had to reject Christ according to prophecy from Isaiah).

  People are always begging God to override other people's free will when it comes to getting a job or getting a house or some other deal. (Please God, make them pick me! (but your will be done)(but oh please make them pick me!).

  Do Satan and the Demons have free will? Does a demon ever do a good deed? They are, after all, our fellow moral agents
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  simon17

  Put this in another context.

  Would you prefer a Stepford wife who is programmed to be whatever you want to a wife with her own will and emotions who may let you down?

  Supposing you want the latter, thats fine, but you can't say you want a wife who will love you and stay with you by choice while threatening to kill her if she were to ever leave you. That's abusive.

  If God said that he wants humans to serve him out of love and things will be better that way, but if you want, go out and live with Satan and whatever life that ends up being, then that is an ACTUAL choice. Obey me or die is free will in a technical sense, but it is also the height of emotional and/or physical abuse.
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  N.drew

  Wow robB!

  Please can you explain what this means? - They are, after all, our fellow moral agents
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  N.drew

  How, pray tell, did man put the Mars Rover on a speck of real estate 55 million KM away while the Earth was rotating at 24000 miles per hour? And yet, you say we cannot clearly see ahead?

  I think this describes math along with chemistry and other science pretty well . (things that can be seen) I'm talking about hearts and emotion. Also unforeseen circumstance.