I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?

by cantleave 202 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    I believe that if it was actually inspired by an all-powerful God -

    Then he would not have tried to trick us into thinking that humankind is only 6000 years old, or that ancient humans lived over 900 years.

    Nor that he would have killed everybody but 9 people by flooding the entire earth by physically impossible means, nor that Jonah could live three days after being swallowed by a fish which of which there is no biological evidence, nor that ...

    Well, in a word - NO.

    It is ancient religious myth, valuable in that sense, but not inspired unquestionable truth.

  • arko_n9ne
    arko_n9ne

    the ancient assyrians practiced ashurism. ashur was their god who was feuding with the god of babylon. sounds familiar.

    especially when you learn that ashurism evolved into the modern understanding of judaism.

    the stories of the abrahamic bible are parallels to stories in ashurism. there is no originality in the old testament.

    babylon was the antagonist pre semitic. babylon was the antagonist from moses forward. when babylon fell it remained the antagonist of the story in spiritual form.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    Cantleave and Cofty,

    the first series of Sherlock I wasn't to keen on it. I prefered the one with Jeremy Brett. Sherlock was too updated. But like you say Cantleave last weeks was really good. (sorry to be off topic)

  • Mebaqqer2
    Mebaqqer2

    I don't believe the Bible for the same reasons I don't believe the Qur'an, Book of Mormon, Kojiki, Lotus Sutra, etc. Someone (cofty) already stated the point, but I will say it as well. Christians, like most religious believers, start with an idea that their belief is somehow sui generis so that any usual method of investigating its claims of truth is held to be inapplicable, unacceptable, or insufficient to Christianity. Look, for example, at perhaps the foremost Christian apologist William Lane Craig. He spends alot of time debating and writing books on how reason supports the truths of Christianity. However, in his book "Reasonable Faith," he lets the actual situation slip:

    "May I suggest that, fundamentally, the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating witness of God's Holy Spirit? Now what do I mean by that? I mean that the experience of the Holy Spirit is veridical and unmistakable (though not necessarily irresistible or indubitable) for him who has it; that such a person does not need supplementary arguments or evidence in order to know and to know with confidence that he is in fact experiencing the Spirit of God; that such experience does not function in this case as a premise in any argument from religious experience to God, but rather is the immediate experiencing of God himself" -William Lane Craig, "Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics," rev. ed. (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994), 31, 32.

    Thus for Craig the truth of Christianity is not established by any of the arguments he makes, but rather on some religious experience which he claims is "self-authenticating." One should already see the problem with this criterion for establishing truth since not being indubitable (thus dubitable, i.e. subject to doubt) necessarily means it cannot be "veridical and unmistakeable." Craig's self-authenticating religious experience stands in the same tradition as Rudolf Otto who likewise sought to ground the truth claims of Christianity in a claimed superior religious experience that ultimately falls outside any of the usual methods of empirical inquiry. In this way, Christians simply use reasonable sounding arguments to supplement their experience so as to given their religion a superfical air of reasonableness. In point of fact, however, Christians do not take reason to be the arbitor in examining the claims of their religion. Thus we are led back to Augustine's fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding) where reason only serves as the tool for so called revealed truths which are "known" through faith. This is all quite clear from Craig who himself states that "Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa" (Craig 36).

    One should see another problem with the use of this criterion to establish truth in the fact that religions outside of Christianity likewise have "veridical and unmistakeable" religious experiences which Christians ironically will not accept as establishing the truth of the claims those religions make. Instead, the Christian takes those experiences as due to the influence of demons or psychological self deception. Thus the religious experiences of others are dismissed outright in preference to their own experience which actually should be taken as no more credible than any other. Thus essentially, Christianity is true because it says it is true.

    This claimed unique status for Christianity naturally flows into all aspects of Christian apologetics making them disingeuous and unconvincing. To take the example of "proof from prophecy," Christians maintain that the Jewish Scriptures prophecy in great detail about Jesus numerous times giving convicing proof that Jesus is in fact the Messiah of God. Thus Matthew 2:15 shows that Jesus' move back from Egypt "fulfilled" the statement found in Hosea 11:1 where God declares "out of Egypt I called my son." Of course turning to Hosea 11 itself one does not find any prophecy concerning the Messiah, but rather a poetic passage recounting Israel's early history of God's callings them out from Egypt and their subsequent turning aside from God to worship Baal. The Christian will quickly respond that the passage has "dual meaning" or "prefigures" Jesus and so is in fact to be taken as a prophecy about Jesus. Thus the argument is ultimately that the passage is a prophecy because Christianity says it is a prophecy and it was fulfilled in Jesus because Christianity says it was. Of course the reasonable person sees in this instance that Christians have simply stacked the deck by fabricating a prophecy out of the words of Hosea in order to create proof for a preconceived claim of Jesus' Messiahship so that the said "prophecy" is completely unconvincing. The Christian of course will be content in sitting in their "self-authenticated" truth which is supplemented by self-proclaimed proof all while looking down on or pitying those not accepting Christian claims as hard-hearted and obstinate or ignorant at the very best.

    The irony is that when it comes to other religious traditions' deployment of similar proofs, Christians suddenly become critical and subject those claims to reasonable inquiry. Take for example the Mormon claim that the book of Mormon is prophecied in Ezekiel 37:16, 17. Christians here will point out the overall context which makes it clear that Ezekiel is speaking of a reunification of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel so that the Mormon claim that this is a "prophecy" concerning the Book of Mormon simply can't be sustained. Mormons, however, already accept that Ezekiel is talking about the reunification of Judah and Israel but that this reunification is only viable due to the restoration of both sets of Scriptures, the Bible and the Book of Mormon, so that they claim Ezekiel has a deeper significance here. Is the Mormon appeal to some deeper significance for Ezekiel's words taken seriously by Christians? Absolutely not. The Christian here makes the reasonable conclusion that clear contextual indications are what should guide the understanding of the text and that Mormons are simply appealing to some claimed deeper meaning so as to manufacture proof to support their beliefs. One should remember too that the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is also said by Mormons to be guaranteed by a witness of the Holy Spirit, i.e. burning of the bosom, that they no doubt also take as "veridical and unmistakeable" but which Christians reject out of hand. Incidently, the Mormons for their part will simply decide that the witness of the Holy Spirit to the veracity of the Book of Mormon takes precedence over any of the counter arguments Christians might throw at them due to the same reliance on their religious experience that Craig makes clear for his own views. In this way, both sides end up talking at each other with each not listening to the other seriously for ironically the very same reason. Examples of such double standards as these show clearly how Christian apologetics are simply a charade which attempt to cloth the claims of Christianity, actually accepted on the basis of a religious experience, with an air of reason by arming itself with "proofs" that are expected to convince others which are actually formulated on bases that even the Christian apologists would not accept unless it serves to support their own position.

    This brings us back to why I do not believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant word of God. Well the answer is quite simple. Unlike the Christian who finds a subjective religious experience supplemented by forms of argument which would not be taken seriously from others to attest to the truth of Christian claims, I simply apply the same standards to all religious claims and texts equally. Thus I examine the Bible using the same critical methodology I would to any other text of antiquity. That is not to disclude the possibly that the Bible could in theory be demonstrated to be the inspired, inerrant word of God, but that I have yet to see any evidence of this that could not be explained in a more reasonable way or could not be claimed for some other text. Christian claims of the Bible's uniqueness are only based on preconceived ideas that it is unique. In a sense, the Bible is indeed unique, but only in the sense that any text is unique. Of course Christians are arguing that the Bible is unque par excellence as is the Christian religion. It is certainly true that Christianity is unique in its claims, but this this does not translate into its being true. Buddhism is also unique in its claims which likewise does not make it true. Similarly the Bible is unique, but this does not translate into its being true any more than the uniqueness of the Lotus Sutra does. Arguments in support of the Bible's claimed uniquely unique status, such as prophecies, non-contradition, scientific knowledge, etc., all ultimately rest on assuming the Bible to be sui generis from the start and using a double standard of witholding it from the normal procedure of subjecting it to objective, rational inquiry. Thus, my not beliving in the Bible as the inspired, inerrant word of God is not because I am hard-headed, obstinate, or ignorant any more than the Christian is hard-headed, obstinate, or ignorant for dismissing Mormon claims for the Book of Mormon. Rather, I simply employ the same methodology that a Christian would to all texts equality and don't "play favorites" in the pursuit of truth.

    -Mebaqqer

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    (sorry to be off topic)

    OK, but don't let it happen again.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I do not believe the Bible is inspired of God, if it was He would have made it, as Cantleave says, self-authenticating in some way, a fact or two that the writers could not have known at the time they wrote, and,almost the same thing, a prediction that came 100% true.

    I am familiar with all the pro-inspiration for the Bible arguments, they do not stand scrutiny.

    I do not wish to throw out the baby with the bathwater as the old saying goes, so I recognise there may be instuction, comfort, and even wisdom to be found in the Bible, but it is still the work of men, men of limited knowledge because of their time and their circumstances.

    To claim anything more than that for it is to ignore all the evidence, if your faith demands that you ignore all the evidence, is it a faith worth having ?

    SHERLOCK REALLY IS ON NOW, must go !

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    there is no originality in the old testament.

    Well lets give the ideas back to the people who they stole them from and be done with it! LOL! The lack of originality just makes it all the more facinating and places it's age as possibly much older than previously thought. Sure the Genesis Document has a distinguishable age, but how far back does the line of plagiarizers go? If that could be reasonably ascertained that would give Genesis it's true ideaological date which of course would be incredibly ancient. This begs the question to me, where did these ancient humans get all this information about culture, the universe and the world around them?

    -Sab

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    That the bible is sui generis comes from it's ability to (verb meaning) to cover like a blanket all other religions.

    I believe there is a hunger in some people to realize life is better than "eating and drinking". People that crave intellectual stimulation but are not in the class for it need the Bible. Other religions mimic or reflect the world as it is. The Bible extends the possibility of something better. It is written (it is being written) as a response to that hunger. It is a letter written to all persuasions, and all ages for all ages (as in generations).

    It leads to the God that does make things happen FOR GOOD.

    Spiritual things are exceedingly difficult to write in human terms.

  • poopsiecakes
    poopsiecakes

    Hello, poopsie. I hope you don't put me in this category of extremism. I think all those myths you mentioned have much worth. However I lean towards the Bible because my upbringing required that I study it day and night and contemplate on it while I was asleep. I feel comfortable with it just as someone from Roman times would feel comfortable with Zues or in the renaissance, Merlin. Whatever truth there is in the Bible is not unique to it esepcially because it was not the first attempt to put truth into language.

    Hi Sab :)

    You've stated in exact words why you are so desperate to believe in the bible. You've been indoctrinated from the time you were a child. I know that you're on a journey and starting to learn what it is to think for yourself which is awesome to watch, however your posts of late have come to reflect that you are more than willing to put aside 'fact' in your search of 'truth'. I think it's something everyone goes through and some stop when they reach the threshold of their comfort level and some push through that and no matter how uncomfortable it gets, continue in the pursuit of 'fact'. It's always a pretty thought to believe that something is out there watching over us, but as you've stated, the bible is not the first attempt to make sense of this thought. Why revere those writings over other attempts? Is it because of Constantine and his vision? It's his vision that pushed forward the notion that Christianity is the number one belief, after all and went on to provide us with the bible canon as we know it.

    Morality tales, whether to be found in the Bible, Shakespeare, Milton or Grimm have a worth to us as a culture but they really need to be seen for what they are...tales.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    That the bible is sui generis comes from it's ability to (verb meaning) to cover like a blanket all other religions.

    How does it cover Zen Buddhism like a blanket?

    Spiritual things are exceedingly difficult to write in human terms.

    That is the reason for the Zen Koan - the teaching riddle story leading to enlightenment.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit