Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Hello! Is there a mandated restriction on my posts?

    Here you go again.

    Someone will say give it time. But I'm sitting over here knowing what I do and what others don't. Do you see my number? 3973? Do you think I have just come to this conclusion? Can people conclude that quickly? I don't think so. So anyway, I think there has been four or five, maybe six, people who give my posts some consideration. How many people post here? My conclusion is is there a mandated restriction on my posts? I'm not counting them who criticize my English, why would I do that?

  • tec
    tec

    I'm reading your posts, Nancy. Just mulling them over. As for your two questions, I don't know that there is one for the first... as for the second, I guess one is encouraged because people like to see others who share their beliefs. And there is strength in numbers. And sometimes people can remind one another of truths they might have not thought about in a while. In which case, coming together could be as simple as speaking... in any setting; including this one. Coming together helps build a bond, I guess.

    What do you think?

    It's truer, therefore giving draws the giver closer to GOD.

    I find that this is true.

    I am thinking about what you shared on what ' do not forsake the gathering of yourselves' means.

    Peace!

    Tammy

  • N.drew
    N.drew
    And there is strength in numbers.

    But it is numbers that are against the wisdom, strength and power of God.

    Revelation 7:12

    "saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

    So whether there is one or many the strength of God is the same.

    Judges 7:2

    The LORD said to Gideon, "The people who are with you are too many for Me to give Midian into their hands, for Israel would become boastful, saying, 'My own power has delivered me.'

    Thank you for answering Tammy. You know (I hope) that I wasn't talking about you.

  • tec
    tec

    So whether there is one or many the strength of God is the same

    Oh, I totally agree. I meant that the people feel strength in numbers... even if they are (or what they believe is) wrong. Numbers don't actually mean anything.

    I know you weren't talking about me.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    N.Drew - regardless of the strict definition of "forsake" I think most would understand that it means not to abandon something. Evidently the NT doesn't lay down a certain number of meetings per week/month/year, but the idea of regularity is surely inherant in "all the more so as you behold the day drawing near." (it's funny thinking about that that one meeting got cut even though the day must be nearer). I think I'm finding it difficult to exactly grasp some of your application of that passage. I prefer a simple reading, but I will give it some more thought.

    As to the purpose of the congregation being to "preserve the word through the ages", I don't think that is stated anywhere, and I don't see any evidence that a "congregation" has been successful at doing that from the intervening period between Christ and now. Do you have some scriptural reasoning to identify that as the purpose? I would be interested to understand that. It seems to me that the "inciting to love and fine works" is more intrinsic to the purpose, and that would apply all the more so nearer the conclusion of the system of things.

    miles3 - Of course I accept that my questions are presented from with my own frame of reference, and that is shaped by external influences (including in part WT teachings). In principle that is true of all of us. To imply however that I am unable to analyse the scripture in any form of objective manner is wrong. You may feel that way, but that is without knowing me personally, so it would seem to be an unfair judgement. If some of my conclusions coincide with WTS teachings that does not automatically make them wrong. That would be unless we could categorically say that EVERY WTS teaching is wrong (just because). I would say that someone who took that view would have to be able to somehow justify that as a blanket statement, otherwise it is just as narrow minded as someone who accept all WTS teachings as correct (just because)

    Tammy - I still feel that "gathering together" is a form of command. "Command" just might a negative connotation because it sounds like a "demand", so maybe there is a better way of describing it because nether word occurs in relation to congregation meetings. But it is similar to when a parent might ask their child to do something that will strongly benefit them if they do, and have a serious negative effect if they do not. Is that a command? Well from the parent's point of view (if he/she is a good parent) the child's actions are not optional. But it might still be presented as a strong plee or request, and if the child is correctly motivated he/she will see it as non-optional. I think that encouragement to gather is a bit like that.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    I have observed that there is as much evidence for my theory of the elders being needed to ensure the scriptures get where they are suppose to go as there is evidence that the elders are for holding people together.

    flamegrilled you are treating forum as it should be treated, I think, and that is dialoguing. Thank you for responding to my posts!

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    N.Drew - I'm giving that some thought. For example the elders are told to "Shepherd the flock of God under your care" which must refer to the people in the congregation - no? But I can't think of anywhere it says "be caretakers for God's word" or something along those lines.

    Similarly the Christians were told to be "obedient to those taking the lead among you", which again seems to put the emphasis on elders looking after the congregation and setting an example.

    Could you give me an example of the scriptrues that you believe put more emphasis on elders just keeping the word pure over time? I'd like to see that and give it some more thought.

  • tec
    tec

    Tammy - I still feel that "gathering together" is a form of command. "Command" just might a negative connotation because it sounds like a "demand", so maybe there is a better way of describing it because nether word occurs in relation to congregation meetings. But it is

    similar to when a parent might ask their child to do something that will strongly benefit them if they do, and have a serious negative effect if they do not. Is that a command? Well from the parent's point of view (if he/she is a good parent) the child's actions are not

    optional. But it might still be presented as a strong plee or request, and if the child is correctly motivated he/she will see it as non-optional. I think that encouragement to gather is a bit like that

    I don't disagree with that. A "form of command" is more of a suggestion, some advice... an attempt to help as best as the advice giver can. No problem with that. Just keep in mind that it came from Paul, and not from Christ. Which doesn't make it wrong, but he was addressing a specific group of people, perhaps in answer to a specific problem at the time.

    This does not make it one of the defining marks of true or proper worship. Because even if you cannot find those people with whom to gather, Christ is always there.

    You didn't answer if you would gather with those who believed in an eternal punishment of torment/hell. I assume the answer is no. If so, then you might understand how some have left off organizations altogether. For me, I have been called OUT. I cannot imagine going into a 'church', listening to a preacher, accepting doctrines, following rituals... without a very strong feeling of 'WRONG' inside me. Without feeling compelled to speak UP, or get OUT. I cannot go back to that, becasue I was led out of that, and I have to follow Christ and where He leads me. I have, however, found others who have been called 'out' as well. I have found some of those others here. But even if I had not, I would follow the Lamb wherever He leads me.

    As per the structure of organization, you might want to keep these in mind as well:

    "But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth, 'father,' for you have on eFather, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher', for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant.

    I know that Paul set up an organization. Could be that he felt he had no choice... that the people demanded an organization and things of 'sight' because their faith was not enough to walk by faith alone. Perhaps he thought they would mature so that they no longer needed anyone to teach them (such as the organization of elders and 'father's and preachers and 'rabbis'). Because if one has an annointing, then one no longer needs anyone to teach them:

    1John 2:27 - As for you, the annointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his annointing teaches you about all things and as that annointing is real, not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in Him.

    Peace to you,

    Tammy

  • flamegrilled
    flamegrilled

    Tammy - just so I understand do you think that the NT is inspired, or some of it, or none of it? I note you quote 1 John, but seem to imply that Paul was acting with good motive, but maybe not exactly according to what Christ had in mind. Did I understand that correctly? If so I am not asking so as to disagree or criticize. I myself have wondered when Paul says in one place "I say, not the Lord" (can't remember where). It would just help me if I understood your perspective on the NT as the inspired word of God or not.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    The congregation was for keeping the word. The elders were for keeping the order.

    2 Timothy 4:3 is a prophesy of the exodus away from the purity of the Bible. But God's will would have been done. The written word is available to almost anyone who wants to read it and even to they who want to know what it says.

    1 Peter 1:25*

    "The word of the Lord abides to the age". A prophesy that the congregation indeed did fullfill it's commission

    " And this is the word which was preached to you."

    To shepherd (verb) http://concordances.org/greek/4165.htm

    I believe this can be demonstrated by an "elder" without ever knowing (meeting) the members of the flock of God. It would be likened to the portion of power that went to the heads of families from out of Moses. Because the word shepherd, tend means

    4165 /poimaíno ("shepherding, pastoring") is distinct from "feeding" ( 1006 /bósko ). 4165 ( poimaíno ) focuses on " tending " (" shepherding ") ( WS , 274), which includes guarding, guiding, and folding the flock and is only provided (ultimately) by Jesus Christ – the Shepherd, who calls under-shepherds (such as elder-overseers) to guard and guide His people by His direction (1 Pet 5:1-5

    and I'm certain it can be done with prayer and steadfastness and just wanting to. It's spiritual.

    Of course I might be wrong about what the congregation was for but I have read the Bible, read it all out loud, and I have been studying the interlinear. And I have concluded by logic that it does not mean gathering together physically. OMG how can it be a physical gathering together? When I was fantasizing what paradise and the resurrection would be like I never once imagined that Moses would want to meet me. I thought John and I would eventually bump into each other..

    *this is probably another place where the Watchtower inserted "Jehovah" for their disgusting propaganda http://biblos.com/1_peter/1-25.htm

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