Criminal , new US ally

by Norm 125 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Norm

  Hi there Pat,

  You said:

  Hello Norm and Seeker,
  I don't comprehend your apparent complete negativism towards America. I don't recall a positive thing ever said about the US. To begin with how would you feel, Norm, if there were several posts about how rotten, etc., Norway is? I agree with TR that this is an inappropriate venue for political discussion in general, and America bashing in particular. Sit back and criticize every thing because it's easy and seems to find reception by many.

  It isn’t negativism Pat, it is criticism. There is a difference. Like any country there are a lot of positive things to be said about the US, but that wasn’t what I and the newspaper were addressing at the moment. If there was several post about how rotten Norway is, it would probably be something in it. But the problem is most people in general and Americans in particular don’t know shit about Norway, or any other country outside of the US for that matter. Apart from Seeker who seem to have a clear grasp of the matter I see that not many of you have even tried to address the point I was making. Is a man who has carried out genocide a fit ally for a nation that claim it is at war with terrorism? What do you call a man who has carried out genocide? How about addressing the issue?

  Talk about an assumption. Norm, what if several thousands of your fellow citizens were bombed? I don't get that it follows YOU would be a bleeding heart for other wars in other countries. Your use of words like 'usual lesson' and 'loss of lives is not important' are just assumptions for which you offer no evidence.
  Just the usual criticism and easy cheap shots.

  Pat

  If what happened in NY September 11 happened here I would be as outraged as you were/are. But possibly unlike you I would feel no relief of satisfaction knowing that men women and children which had absolutely nothing to do with the whole thing being bombed. I happen to feel that innocent people who happen to live in the “wrong” country don’t “deserve” to be killed just because they are in the wrong place. Now it seems that a lot of other people who have the misfortune to live in Iraq will be blessed with bombs and who knows, maybe the General which carried out the genocide can become the new president in Iraq. Will he be a better ruler than Saddam? Probably not, but he will be “friendly” with the US, and then he can kill as many of his countrymen as he want, right? Talk about being concerned with “terrorism”.

  The US has a long tradition of holding its hands over murderers and despots all over the world. Take Chile; take central America Is it any wonder we think that only American lives matter? Why not try to address the issue, do you really know anything about history?

  Norm
• 

  cellomould

  Too much good has been said here.
  I only have one question for everyone:

  Since we already agree that American lives are worth no more than non-American lives,

  What makes American pride different or even better than that of different countries?

  Oh, and while I'm at it (and you see I have made the mistake as well) America is not a country! The United States is a country! '...of America', you retort?

  Remember that the United States is but one country of at least 20 American countries.

  There's todays lesson in paradigm shifting.

  cellomould

  

  "In other words, your God is the warden of a prison where the only prisoner is your God." Jose Saramago, The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
• 

  gambler

  I also find it funny how euorpeans magicly pass on bashing russia and china.Russia and china have murdured more of their people than any other contries in all of history.Russia has stoped its genocide but china continues to add to its total.Mabey china isint bashed because its no fun to bash them.They dont care what some stupid little contry in euorpe thinks of them.
• 

  freeman

  Oh yes the famous and much feared Focus, so we meet again.

  Are you here to do battle my friend? Can I call you friend, or are you so ‘focused’ on the battle that you have necessarily demonized me in your mind already? Just as an aside, why is it that some here on this DB are afraid of you, and is that a good thing?

  Focus, you are a smart chap; I believe I’ve told you this before. What I failed to tell you is that you’re also a bit of a pompous ass, or more precisely a bully. I don’t like engaging in personal attacks, it’s not my nature at all, but since you are rattling your saber in my direction once again, I feel at least some proportional response is necessary.

  The last time I responded to such attacks by bullies was when a friend needed and asked for my help. I helped this friend defend her master’s thesis. The poor girl (shy and easily intimidated) was required to go before this wolf pack of professors for no less then a third time! Before her last appearance before this tribunal, I coached her and devised a strategy that included putting these learned men in their place, and it worked. She now has her masters.

  Do you see the point I am making by sharing this experience of my friend? Her professors just needed a little reality check, they needed a little humbling. It seems to me, maybe you do too.

  Unfortunately Focus, I am not equal to the task of humbling you. No person on this DB is. Not that I couldn’t put up a pretty good fight if I had sufficient motive, but I don’t. To me it’s a lose – lose situation. What would I gain if I kicked your ass? Nothing. What would you gain if you kicked my ass? Reinforcement of your delusion that you are somehow superior.

  Repeat these words over and over; “Everyone is superior to me in that I may learn from them” “I can learn from everyone” “ I am better then nobody”. Keep saying it like a mantra over and over, and while you are at it, take a clue from other posters such as Allen F. His posts are factual, informative, insightful, and well presented, just like so many of yours. However he brings to his posts and his interaction with others SOMETHING MANY SEE MISSING IN YOU, humility and expressions of human compassion.

  I’m sure it’s down inside of you somewhere Focus, just please let it out more often.

  Freeman
• 

  patio34

  Hi all,

  I'm not replying to the original issue in this thread, because of a lack of research on the issue. Norm, your points are valid and deserve comment sometime. However, i don't have a defense of the charge without reading more about it.

  Focus, your excessive insulting style is too much for me and i'm ending any discussion with you. Your reference to talk shows made me think you'd be good on one. IMO, you're loaded for bear no matter what comes along. Freeman makes the sensible observation that you lack humility, but it seems it is a lack of respect for others. Your argumentation seems good however.

  Maybe I'll be reading foreign news instead of just the US news and gain a better perspective.

  Pat
• 

  IslandWoman

  Prisca,

  If you don't want a repeat of 9/11, then America needs to wake up and accept responsibility for its wrongs, and vow to never repeat them.

  
  I also think that any people who thinks America has in effect asked for 9/11, by doing these "wrongs" you speak of Prisca, should appeal to their own government and tell them to "vow" never to accept military protection from America! "Get the Bastards Out!" should be the call of nations.

  Hey, this is the best way to "wake up" America. In other words, if you don't like what America is "selling" you got to get the "Johns", your governments, to stop coming around for more!

  Believe me, we would also like to have them off our "back"! They just "kiss up" so sweetly it's hard to say no! So the peoples of the world should consider their governments like a wayward husband! Grab him by the collar and get him outa that whore house and tell him that whatever he can't get at home he really doesn't need!

  IW
• 

  Seeker

  pat,

  Maybe I'll be reading foreign news instead of just the US news and gain a better perspective.

  An excellent thing to do, IMO. It's eye-opening how misled we are by the U.S. media. Only by reading all sides can we begin to get a true picture of reality.
• 

  Seeker

  IW,

  We may be talking at cross-purposes here. There are two different types of countries being discussed here:

  1. The kind you refer to, the ones who ask for America's help and then sullenly complain about us endlessly. That is not good.

  2. The kind I refer to, the ones who want to be left alone, but America meddles anyway, causing suffering to their people. That is not good.
• 

  JanH

  Seeker,

  I don't see how receiving US help somehow excludes anyone from having the right to voice criticism of its policies. To criticize specific decisions when we disagree with them is not a display of emnity; it is an open relationship. I have to point out that without help of US allies abroad, you'd not gotten very far in finding those responsible for the 9/11 attack. Those who helped you, and continue to help you, will also voice criticism when it's warranted. I find it astonishing that Americans here (and yes, that means USians) seems to think that any help should buy eternal, blind adoration.

  Norm posted a concrete criticism of US policy, namely cooperating with a butcher to get Saddam. That is the same kind of error committed before by the US (and others), and which is the reason the west has armed and dangerous enemies in places like Iran and (until recently) Afghanistan.

  I did not see many defend that specific US decision. I did see much whining from over-defensive Americans, implying that because the "US helped Europe" (history knowledge at its worst) 60 years ago, they are currently above any criticism.

  - Jan
  --
  - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")
• 

  Seeker

  Jan,

  Quite right. I should have been more explicit. I was referring to a specific sub-group of criticism that hypocritically condemns the U.S. while accepting its help yet pretending not to want its help. I am not talking about the more general types of criticisms from countries that are U.S. allies. After all, I'm engaging in that form of criticism, so I clearly think that is valid!