Criminal , new US ally

by Norm 125 Replies latest jw friends

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hello Norm and Seeker,

    I don't comprehend your apparent complete negativism towards America. I don't recall a positive thing ever said about the US. To begin with how would you feel, Norm, if there were several posts about how rotten, etc., Norway is? I agree with TR that this is an inappropriate venue for political discussion in general, and America bashing in particular. Sit back and criticize every thing because it's easy and seems to find reception by many.

    Norm states:

    Again we get an example of the usual lesson that the loss of lives is not important if it isn't American or perhaps Israeli. What's 180,000 dead Kurds compared to September 11?
    Talk about an assumption. Norm, what if several thousands of your fellow citizens were bombed? I don't get that it follows YOU would be a bleeding heart for other wars in other countries. Your use of words like 'usual lesson' and 'loss of lives is not important' are just assumptions for which you offer no evidence.

    Just the usual criticism and easy cheap shots.

    Pat

  • bboyneko
    bboyneko

    Freemans rantings sound similair to a JW defending their religion. Where did you learn the bible from? Who taught you bible truths? If it wernt for the society youd be in darkness. etc etc.

    The original poster put out a very good point, why the hell does the US go after Osama only and not other terrorist leaders who have done far worse, and then ally themselves with a mass murderer?

    Pride in your home is one thing, irrational religious-like worship of what is just a big chunk of dirt is another.

    As for the many posts critsizing america, Americans are often ignorant of international media. The world is very anti-America because of the United States recent irrational actions. They withdrew from the anti-land mine treaty, broke the anti ballistic missle treaty, got voted out of the UN (again reflecting world opinion) Start calling entire countries names (calling north korea an axis of evil is not much different from saying China is full of idiots..you expect something more mature from a world leader) Don't forget the US's dark ages death penalty, despite the fact that most of the world has abolished it. Britain said if they found Osama first they would not hand him over to the US. Gee, I wonder why.

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO
    I agree with TR that this is an inappropriate venue for political discussion in general

    NAH

    What better place to discuss politics than on a dub board.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Gweedo,

    You said:

    What better place to discuss politics than on a dub board.
    Clever bit of irony there.



    The WTBS-style Race for Life

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Freeman:

    Thank you for breaking your promise with your last post. From your earlier comments I was indeed getting the impression of "America right or wrong, and no-one else can criticise America because we saved your rears in the war".

    It is a sensitive subject, particularly after the events of last year, and very easy to be drawn into an emotional exchange, rather than an objective one. From what I've seen here in Canada, from my home country of Britain, and from most other media sources I've seen, the response to America has been, and just as importantly, continues to be overwhelmingly positive.

    It is understandable that Americans are sensitive to perceived Anti-Americanism at this time. It is also understandable that non-Americans are sensitive to perceived American jingoism. America is the most powerful nation on earth. Other countries are therefore understandably nervous as to what America may do in a, shall we say, "empassioned mood."

    It is unfortunate that there are some Americans who will say "my country, right or wrong", and use the war as a way of bolstering themselves at the expense of others. Nothing is more annoying, to be frank, than an American who demeans and cheapens the sacrifice of my family and countrymen who suffered and died fighting the Nazis by writing them off with an "if it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German" phrase. Such instances are not common, but do happen. A far more realistic and accurate phrase (borne out by the reading I've done), is to say, "if it wasn't for all of the Allied forces, we might now still be under Nazi rule." Why cannot we honour all of those who fought for freedom, rather than being drawn into petty arguments about whether one nation or another played a vital role? I've met quite a number of war veterans from different countries. Never do they argue like that; only the later generations do.

    As to whether America acted in it's own self-interest I would say: of course it did, and it would have been silly not to. I believe that all individuals and nations act primarily in their self-interest. But as we develop, we realise that co-operation rather than conflict is in all our self-interests. Throughout most of Anglo-American history, our self-interests have been virtually indentical, and I hope that continues.

    Not all outside criticism of America is anti-Americanism, but some is. Europeans should put thought into what they say and how they say it, instead of expecting the Americans to just perceive the point of the message.

    Expatbrit

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    patio

    Hello Norm and Seeker,

    I don't comprehend your apparent complete negativism towards America. I don't recall a positive thing ever said about the US.

    Oh, I've said many positive things, but one tends to complain about the negative rather than extol the positive. But thank you for being a friend and asking me about it instead of just attacking me. Let me explain my position:

    A few weeks back, I pointed out my political position in detail. Basically, I believe any sufficiently large organization eventually gets corrupted. We certainly saw it in the WTS. And now we see it in the U.S. But I'm talking about the leaders, not the American people who I feel are quite open-hearted, generous, and freedom-loving. Well, some of them, anyway. No, my complaint is against the goverment, who I feel is hypocritical, deceptive, and anti-American. Republicans and Democrats are busy selling us out to corporate interests, lying to us repeatedly, using propaganda against us to keep us busy while they grab ever more power, and so on.

    Basically, I am railing against them precisely the way the early colonists railed against British rule. I am a constitutionalist. I appreciate the U.S. Constitution strongly. I want my fellow Americans to appreciate it too, so I point it out when our leaders trample on the Constitution. The Attorney General of the U.S. right now is an extremely dangerous man, for he shows no respect for our rights. The President seems almost eager to be "fighting a war" that is no more a war than the war on drugs (in which people get killed and the army gets used, so just because U.S. armed forces die, it doesn't automatically make it a real, constitutional, Congress-declared war).

    I love Americans. I despise anyone who tramples on the Constitution. I believe power corrupts. I point it out. I hope that makes more sense, and why I have been saying the things I have. I'm upset, just as I was upset when I learned of the corruption of the WTS and the GB. But I care about individual JWs, who have no power, just as I care about individual Americans, who have no power.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    That was very well said, expatbrit. For one thing, America alone would not have won WWII, so that ignorant argument used at times is just ignorance. But it's a lot easier to argue if you are ignorant of the facts!

    But my primary objection to that argument is that it doesn't excuse later wrongdoing by America. America is a great country, but if our leaders do wrong, why is it wrong to point it out? And even if we had been single-handedly responsible for saving the world 50 years ago (and we weren't), it wouldn't mean we could do no wrong now. America does some wonderful, generous things, and they get lots of airtime on our media. America also does some thorougly corrupt, brutal, criminal things, which get almost no airtime on our media, so most Americans remain ignorant of these bad things. It isn't wrong to criticize a country when it does wrong. It is the duty of every citizen to point it out when it happens -- that's part of our constitutional tradition and the very means by which our country was founded in the first place.

    Most Americans seem too fat and happy to remember that, and are only too willing to swallow whatever propaganda comes down the pike. 1984, indeed. It didn't only happen in totalitarian countries...

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Seeker,

    That was an excellent explanation of your views. Mostly I agree with them. That makes a lot more sense and in line with my perceptions of you.

    Pat

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Thank you, Pat. I am actually a reasonable, friendly person with a great sense of humor and a self-deprecating nature. I'm also an idealist. What tends to show on this forum is my idealism, not my easy-goingness. People probably think I'm this wound-up, angry person with a chip on my shoulder. Just the opposite, really, but I use this forum and these discussions to blow off steam in this subject.

  • Xena
    Xena

    You made me laugh Seeker....therefore you MUST have a great sense of humor

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