I’m a believer in God and Jesus guided by imperial, although not necessarily scientific evidence as scientific evidence is of a restricted type. I also use philosophy and metaphysical systems of thought as a guide also. Some of the bible I believe and other parts I don’t as it was written by human beings. Aside from this I’m not a literalist which does allow more options for compatibility with scientific evidence. Parts I except as true require backup from external sources such as archaeology and other external sources including science where science is applicable although it is not always going to be. For instance, a miracle cannot be proved by science to be true or false, and so other external evidence is required by me in order to give the claim credibility.
Are YOU a Believer, Atheist, Agnostic, Active JW or WHAT?
by Greybeard 82 Replies latest jw friends
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cofty
a miracle cannot be proved by science to be true or false
Yes it can. What other tool is there?
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Seraphim23
You tell me as you say it can?
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cofty
It was rhetorical question Seraphim.
Miracle claims are scientific claims. As science has matured miracle clains have retreated.
When god heals an amputee get back to us about miracles.
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DJS
As all of you should know by now, I'm an atheist. And it was a very long journey, not any reaction to JWs, the WT or anything else. It was a lifelong analytical sojourn. Nothing else makes sense to me. Cofty carries our banner. Listen to him. He is the only one typically responding to theist/theological discussions that makes any sense. When I read the responses from the theists, I become nauseous. Anything else I would say would be repeating myself or appearing arrogant to the theists, and you and others can look it up in the archives.
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cofty
That's very kind DJS but there are many rational minds here who often make me wish I could be so incisive.
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problemaddict
SE 1974.
Welcome to the board. Lets have a conversation. Start up a thread. I have been inactive for about 10 months. When the blood issue came up with the birth of my child, it forced me to think about not only my personal refusal of blood which I basically had just accepted, but refusing for my wife or child, and what that meant. I studied the ins and outs, and no longer accepted the societies simplified, blood transfusions are in violation of the "abstain" verse, explanation.
Once I discovered the overly ridgid and nonsensical interpretation of that doctrine, as well as the flip flops, the outright dishonesty, and even the concessions made......it kind of let me peak through a wall that i myself had built.
I have good friends, a good family, and all of them are JW's. I am currently trying to leave with all of them in tact. I am doing so not because I couldn't give my son an answer......but because I think the answer was to go.
So here I am. From pioneer, MS, need-greater, RBC lead, etc.... to inactive "spiritually weak" guy who shows up at the convention to help out with his kid, but secretly just writes notes to his wife to get her to think. I think its working!
So lets talk. What is it you want to discuss? I don't think JW's are wrong about everything. I should say that at the onset probably. Either way its good to know this group of people has a variety of experiences and has served at almost every level of the org. Alot of good people here who support one another, who think critically and research, provide humor and support, and others that just are angry because of abuse. So lots of personality.
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Seraphim23
To say that `miracle claims are scientific claims` has not been proved or even demonstrated Cofty. Mathematical systems, physical laws and such things that science is defined by, may be optional, in which case science has competitors that we don’t know about in other modes of existence or universes and so on, let alone the problem of how such modes of existence would connect to one another if indeed they do or can. To write off miracles is premature when considering that science is restricted in its reach. Science cannot even answer basic questions, like does existence have a beginning or not? It has limits in its reach!
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cofty
A miracle claim is a scientific claim by definition.
Science has limits but testing miracle claims isn't one of them.
As I said, when god heals an amputee get back to me. Until then, as P.T. Barnum is credited with saying, "there's a sucker born every minute".
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slimboyfat
Isn't the very definition of a miracle something that defies current scientific explanation?
Therefore stating that there are no scientifically proven miracles is an assumption about how the world works that is masquerading as a conclusion. It is an assertion that there is nothing real outside the rational and empirical. Such a claim can never be proven because any proof will always rely on the very rationality and forms of evidence it seeks to prove. So what we end up with are positivists who repeat until they are blue in the face that there is nothing real outside rationality and empiricism, and wonder why not everyone accepts those assertions as absolute truth.