What is "truth" - COULD Einstein Have Been Wrong?

by AGuest 197 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec
    tec

    It suggests that is unable to think for herself and so is, underneath it all, nothing more than a follower.

    Thank you, Shelby. (Peace and great love and thanks to you!!) Yes. It does suggest this very thing. Thank you for all the things you said about and for me.

    Trevor (peace to you as well!!), I know you would not intentionally say something to hurt me. But these are words that tear down:

    From my perspective I see the increasing influence she is having on you.

    Coming from someone I don't personally care about, it would be at MOST, a mild annoyance... though more likely it would mean nothing at all. But I care about you. You matter to me. So your words do, too. These ones hurt, because these are words that you would use to speak to an adolescent - or someone easily taken advantage of, or easily led. Because they are words that made me doubt my own strength of will - even if only for a moment. Now I don't think you realize that. I do think you meant to help - from your perspective. But I'm not that vulnerable, Trevor, my friend. In fact, I'm pretty strong-willed :)

    (It is kind of funny to me, but I find that it is mostly women who know this about me... my mother brushed off my dad's concern when I was studying with the witnesses; she never worried about me at all. She told him that I would do whatever was right for me and for my family, regardless of what that decision was.)

    If I am headed somewhere, I am choosing to go there (in faith or otherwise). If I am being taken advantage of, chances are that I know it... and I am allowing it, out of love for that person. Or I am - in full faculties - willing to risk being taken advantage of, out of love for that person, or out of unwillingness to hurt that person. Christ is the One who leads me. Christ is the one I choose to follow. No one else. And if I am ever misled (again), then I need only to look at Him to find my way back. 'Course, if I just keep looking to Him, then it won't be so easy for me to be misled in the first place.

    As to influence, don't we all influence one another? Hopefully for the best, because we learn from one another's wisdom, knowledge and/or eksperience? We take what we think is right, and we discard what we think is wrong. So that seems like a moot issue to me. That's the way the world works. But it is not the same as manipulation or coercion.

    Peace to you, and I hope that you are not hurt by what I've said. Because I've been sitting here wondering if/what to send for the past 45 minutes... NOT wanting to say something that would hurt you, or even offend you. Not sure that I could accomplish that.

    Love to you as well,

    Tammy

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    Tammy Thanks for your reply and the thought that you have given to what I have said. I am surprised at the response to one small sentence. I commented on the influence that Shelby has because I do care for you. It was not my intention to hurt you nor have I ever considered you weak, quite the opposite.

    I can’t see that commenting that someone is influencing someone else “are words that you would only use to speak to an adolescent - or someone easily taken advantage of, or easily led.” As you said, “As to influence, don't we all influence one another?” Yes we do! This doesn’t imply weakness on the part of the one being influenced.

    Shelby stated that I am being influenced by others on this board. Knowingly or unknowingly, it is inevitable that we will be influenced by people we associate with, for better or for worse. Because I don’t share your belief, I see your situation from a different perspective which is why I said, “ From my perspective.”

    When my older brother left Jehovah's Witnesses he became increasing involved in another belief system. I expressed my concern over the influence it was having on him. He wanted to hear how I felt he was being affected and welcomed my input. Some years later he regretted getting involved and left.

    It is well known that when people with a common interest regularly converse they form a group mentality. People in that group will adopt from others and also compromise in order to maintain harmony and solidarity in the group. I have knowingly done this to fit in with both religious and secular groups I have been involved with. The more involved I got the more I was expected to adjust or comply. I did not see this as a weakness. That has been my experience and my comment was based on such experience.

    As I said to you though Tammy, ”It’s not my business.” I am sorry if I have upset you. I will not comment again on my observations regarding the influences on this board in relation to you personally. Instead I will endeavour to share the same light hearted approach that I have away from the board.

    Once again I wish you well in your spiritual journey.

    Kind regards - Trevor

  • bohm
    bohm

    i am sorry you change the direction of the thread aguest. i find it quite peculiar you are so fond of telling us about your spiritual revelations, yet you are so vague in terms of what you actually experience. I wrote:

    Aguest: So when you are asleep, you are woken up, and you can both see the LORD and hear his voice?

    Can you converse with him? Ie. can you ask him questions out loud (like you would to a normal person), and does he then respond? Or do you think questions, and does he then read your mind and respond?

    Do you hear him talk, as in you hear a (physical) voice, or do you feel his words "manifest" themselves in your head?

    and i still dont see an answer to that question...

    as for what you wrote -- ofcourse the earth is not flat irrelevant of what we believe, i have never stated otherwise.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    Isn't it Einstein's THEORY that we are dealing with? He never said it is unequivable, indisputable truth, did he? Just curious. Science recognizes the idea of a theory, the WT doesn't give us the freedom to truly discuss their 'theories' as being such, but presents them as indisputable facts-until the new light starts shining, anyway.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    New Chapter, I think you are right-Einstein would be more open to his theory being disputed than probably most scientists today are-I understand that he had the open heart and mind of a child-not bound by preconceived ideas, not in a box. THAT is what made him so brilliant and creative. He'd be having a kick with this one.

  • tec
    tec

    I agree that Einstein would have loved to have his theories challenged, even changed. His words imply that he was forward thinking. He would have been thrilled about anything new that brought us a deeper understanding of our world.

    Trevor, you have a pm.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    People in that group will adopt from others and also compromise in order to maintain harmony and solidarity in the group. I have knowingly done this to fit in with both religious and secular groups I have been involved with.

    Perhaps that is my "problem," dear Glad (again, peace to you... and you can choose to continuing reading or skip - either way, I take no offense!): I do NOT adopt and compromise "in order to maintain harmony and solidarity in the group." I don't care about the group; I care about the truth. I do not ascribe to the "herd" mentality, and that has been a... well, some would say "problem"... for me since before kindergarten. I actually tend to go against the status quo... because while I might have some fear of being caught by the lion because I'm out on my own... I am much more afraid of being run off the cliff when the herd "stampedes"... which herds do. Once the mass picks up momentum, there's almost NO way to turn off or go back - over the cliff and to a very painful demise... is usually the ultimate fate. And so, I follow neither the "herd" of religion... nor the "herd" of putting one's faith totally in science... which is subject to progression, regression, and so change.

    This requires an ability to not only think for oneself... but to resist "group thinking", even in the face of great opposition from the "group." Which isn't easy. I think Mr. Einstein was such a thinker. Do I put myself on his level of thinking? Absolutely not - I don't know the... ummm... "laws" which controlled his thinking. However, just like perhaps one theory/formula (E=mc2) was the underlying "law" OF his thinking (on certain matters)... the "laws" that control MY thinking is summed up in one word: love. Not affection, not attraction... but the love, first, of truth. Which, for me, starts WITH the Truth: Christ.

    You don't get that, but dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!) not only gets it but, by her words, I dedeuce that she lives by that law, as well. And so, like E=mc2 "guides" many to understand the workings of the physical (seen) world... love "guides" those like me and her to understand the workings of the spirit (and, thus, unseen) world, which leads, by means of another path, to understanding the physical world, as well.

    So, it is not I who influence dear tec: it really is love... as she herself states. Because of this love... she can see Christ... because he is the IMAGE of love: God. Who is love.

    The more involved I got the more I was expected to adjust or comply.

    Yeah, see... I don't really "do" what I am "expected" to... to adjust OR comply. Surely, my posts here show that. Many of you EXPECT me to back down, acquiesce, and either adjust and comply to more "orthodox" christian beliefs, etc., or adjust and comply to NO belief (in God). Either way, you EXPECT me to speak a certain way and respond/comment a certain... or refrain from doing so... in compliance with YOUR desires. I am sorry, but I don't "work" that way - I am not even WIRED that way. Never have been.

    I did not see this as a weakness.

    For me, it depends. If such adjustment or compliance goes against all that I know to be TRUE... then doing it just to make others feel "better"... more "comfortable"... going along just to get along... is, to me, a weakness. It suggests a lack of integrity and a willingness to leave off from what you KNOW is true... in order to be accepted and, possibly, ward off persecution/ridicule for being/thinking/believing "differently." I say pooh to THAT. Because that is what man has done to ALL those who aren't "like"/don't think/believe as he does: persecuted and/or ridiculed. Whether it's religionists against non-religionists, clergy again scientists, "christians" against atheists (and vice versa)... even religionists against religionists. ALL are "herd" mentalists, in some way... if they can't accept that others AREN'T like/don't believe/think as they do.

    That has been my experience and my comment was based on such experience.

    I get that you may not have intended to offend... but that you don't see how your words were... well, misplaced as to dear tec... is... well, understandable, now. Because of the influence that has occurred with YOU.

    I really do wish you peace, dear Glad, truly. And the ability to accept me as I am... without trying to "change" me... or falsely accuse me of an immoral, improper, and evil motive, intention, and agenda... and you have insinuated. NO ONE, including you and dear tec... has to pay one iota of attention to what I post. NO ONE had to open and read... or subsequently respond to this thread. To do so... and then attempt to blame me for "influencing" others is wrong... on so many levels. It is a cop out... and sad attempt to hold ME responsible for others' thinking... and actions.

    Surely, even YOU know I don't have that kind of influence... and even if I did (which I don't)... where is the HARM in influencing others to love MORE?

    Again, peace to you... truly. TRULY.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    i am sorry you change the direction of the thread aguest.

    Of course, you are, dear Bohm (peace to you!)... because you'd much rather try to dissect my faith and beliefs... than the real issue raised by the thread (the objectivity of truth).

    i find it quite peculiar you are so fond of telling us about your spiritual revelations, yet you are so vague in terms of what you actually experience.

    I find it quite interesting that (1) when I respond to questions YOU ask you consider it a "fondness for telling of [my] revelations" (vs. your fondness for asking about them)... yet, would say I was purposefully NOT responding if I didn't; and (2) find my responses "vague". Still. I wrote:

    So when you are asleep, you are woken up, and you can both see the LORD and hear his voice?

    No, not always. I hear him all the time. When I am ASLEEP... he wakes me up... so that I can pay full(er) attention. I do not always see him (indeed, that has been rare, actually), but I HEAR him. I don't usually see him any more... because he showed himself to me so frequently early on that I have NO doubt it is him speaking now. However, the vision of him is... well, not easy for the flesh to handle. To have me undergo that too often would... affect my flesh. Possibly pre-"age" it, quite rapidly. Spirit beings don't look like humans, dear one... unless the appear as "able-bodied" persons... or put on flesh. Since I have learned to transcend the flesh... there's no reason for him to put on flesh or appear in such a way. He appears, when he appears... "as he TRULY is."

    Can you converse with him?

    Yes, absolutely.

    Ie. can you ask him questions out loud (like you would to a normal person), and does he then respond?

    Yes... and yes.

    Or do you think questions, and does he then read your mind and respond?

    That, too. Sometimes he responds before I've even finished formulating the question. The thing is, dear one, I don't often ask questions. At least, not questions that I have. I don't have any questions... anymore. I asked a LOT, at first, and for some time. Then I came to realize that ALL that I want to know... WILL be given me, at some time... and so I just wait. The answers come. Sometimes quickly... sometimes not so much. But I learned that asking... ummmm... "stuff"... is not only a waste of time (because if I am not able to "bear" it, "yet", I won't understand it until I am, anyway, so...), but it's also a lack of faith. How so? Because it means, as the Adversary suggested, that God is "withholding" something that I need to have/know.

    But He is NOT. His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit WILL lead us into ALL truth. That we don't receive all of it, say, overnight, is not indicative that something is being withheld. It is indicative of God's love and mercy: we can't HANDLE "all truth" all at once. We can't GET it like that. I go back to the example of the tall stack of films: you might think, well, why not just skip to the last one... why not just remove the stack and SEE what's at the bottom? I thought... and asked... that, once, too. And what I learned is this: you cannot fully and accurately understand the alphabet if you only know the letters "a, b, c... l... p... t... and z. There is MORE between these... which help you "see" and understand the ENTIRE alphabet.

    Likewise, by removing some of the films, the ultimate image will ALWAYS be distorted. One will NEVER see it as it really is. Unless one is shown ALL of the "images" leading up TO the final image. If, however, one skips certain films... then something is always MISSING.

    So... I don't worry about what I don't know, yet. I have FAITH that I WILL know... when my Lord determines that I am READY to know... able to "bear" it. And he hasn't let me down on that, yet. Not once. And so, why wouldn't I trust him to give me the rest, even if it's in HIS due time and not mine? It's like the manna in the wilderness: I have FAITH... and so TRUST... that when he says that I am to eat what I gathered thus far on the 6th day also on the 7th day... because nothing will be provided on the 7th day... that he WILL provide again... on the next 1st day. So, I "chew" on what I have so far... and wait for the next "distribution"... not worrying at all that it won't come. It will.

    Do you hear him talk, as in you hear a (physical) voice, or do you feel his words "manifest" themselves in your head?

    Sometimes (most times) yes... but not always. Most times it is "inside" me (not in my head... but in my blood and bones), because that is where he resides. But it didn't start that way... and doesn't always occur that way. For example, I cannot hear when I put earplugs in (which I do because my lovely husband snores). Rather, I will hear him say, if he is speaking and I have put them in... to "remove" them so that I CAN hear him.

    and i still dont see an answer to that question...

    My apologies. I truly did not discern that you were asking for such details. But I have provided them above and would be more than happy to provide more, if you need them. I have to admit, however, that I really don't get why you considered my previous responses vague - I responded to what you asked... in all sincerity. Given how some (perhaps you) state that questions related to science must be responded to specifically... you know "You can't really respond to that without going into this and your question only begged THIS level of response"... I don't get your accusation of "vague," truly.

    as for what you wrote -- of course the earth is not flat irrelevant of what we believe, i have never stated otherwise.

    It seems to me that you entirely missed the point... which is understandable, as we don't speak the same "language." I understand YOUR language, dear Bohm, because I bothered, starting some time ago... to try and understand it, not just unilaterally dismiss it because I THOUGHT I knew what it was "all about." I knew I did NOT. You might have considered trying to understand MINE... some time ago... rather than unilaterally assuming it was one you knew ("religion")... but do not. Perhaps you're trying to do that, now... and, if so, I truly do appreciate that.

    Again, peace to you... truly.

    YOUR servant (still) and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    AGuest, you have taken upon yourself to lecture me about love and how I don’t get it. But you inform the board that you live by love because you are special and loved by the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA... the Chosen One of JAH.

    Regrettably I see no evidence of love in your posts to me or others who dare to question you claims. You only love those who support you or tread carefully while allowing you to dominate all debate. I do see aggression and self-aggrandisement in your posts. Other posters can draw their own conclusion. I for one am no longer interested attempting to have a rational discussion with you.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I pains me when two people I care about can't find a common ground to get along by.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit