by TimothyT 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
It was beat into my head while I studied that the door was closed, everyone gathered in was of the "other sheep" with an earthly hope.
The "substitutes" that may have been needed would be chosen from among those with years and years of faithful service.
Quendi
I'm not brow beating you. It is a fair question that God says every believer should be able to answer. If you are unable to provide even one scripture that shows how a person can get their sins forgiven outside the new covenant, why not at least give it some thought.
AWEN,
Thank you for the citations. That is most mileage I ever received from anyone I've asked that question to. However, the question is how a person can now get their sins forgiven while outside of the New Covenant..... not a dead person who lived long ago.. The 10 G's are still up for grabs.
BTW - All believing, practicing Jews had their sins forgiven retroactively when Christ died.
OTWO: That was my understanding as well that any replacements would be chosen from older faithful ones.
However the illustrating given by Jesus at Matthew 20:1-16 seems to indicate otherwise. Also we don't know what the requirements are to be "chosen". It's pure speculation on anyone's part as to who is and is not eligible.
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 "About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went.
"He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7 "‘Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9 "The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
So Jesus sends out workers into the vineyard early in the morning. He then sends more workers at 9 am, noon and 5 pm. When he brings them in to be paid he pays the last ones first and some become disgruntled, thinking they should receive more (based upon working longer). Jesus rebukes them by saying they agreed to work for a particular sum and it's his money to distribute as he sees fit.
The point here is the ones who worked in the vineyard for a far longer period of time were paid the same as ones who has worked a very short period of time. This would seem to indicate that years of service is not an indication of who is and is not chosen (paid).
@ Perry. Sorry dude I quoted you exactly how you typed it. You didn't ask for a time period (past, present or future), you made a generalization. Not my fault you didn't proofread, but no worries I wouldn't take your money anyhow.
Perry, how about these?
Romans 11:28 - 32
"As far as the gospel is concened, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.... For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
But even more than that, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
Peace,
Tammy
Wasn’t Kool-Aid man of the anointed?
YES, yes, he was. A point he made VERY ABUNDANTLY clear during his Judicial Committee. He recorded that and sounded quite arrogant about it.
All I kept thinking was, "I wonder if Jesus said, 'You can't crucify me, I am the Son of God and I challenge you to get someone worthy of judging me.'" Because, that was similar to what Rick did to the elders during his JC.
"As far as the gospel is concened, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.... For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
Tammy,
God has a national contract with Israel as a nation. He intends on keeping his end of the bargain that he made with certain partiarchs, concerning the survival of the nation.
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all" - Yes, both Jew and Gentile. This is not saying that all people will be saved.
I know its not saying that all will be saved (though with just this verse it is certainly implied). But if, as Paul says, all Israel will be saved... would that not mean that they're sins are also forgiven, regardless of what they do... but rather just because of His promise to the patriarchs?
Christ asked his father to forgive those who had betrayed and tortured and killed him. They were also not part of the New Covenant.
Peace,
Tammy
Oh... another one (NT scripture):
"Forgive and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37
I could also PM you my address for your cheque ;)
No, the jews that make up "all Israel" will be converted tribulation era Jews who accept Jesus and the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins. The unbelieving/unfaithful Jews will have already been massacred by the Man-of-Lawlessness, the son of perdition AKA the anti-christ.
"Forgive and you will be forgiven" - true for the pre-christian era practicing Jew to whom Jesus was sent. A practicing Jew had a sin-atoning covenant in place prior to Jesus sacrifice. Jesus was telling them that just because they had a sin-atoning apparatus in place, they could not ignore their own responsibility to be forgiving without jeopardizing their own needed forgiveness from God.
Jesus, was not saying that a person without a sin-atoning contract could get their own sins forgiven just by forgiving others, otherwise he died for nothing.
After his death & resurrection Jesus commanded Peter to preach judgment:
Acts 10:42 And he [Jesus] commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Before his death, they were to preach that the Kingdom of God was near. After his death it was about judgment and of course how to escape judgment through the blood contained in the New Covenant.
