Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff 161 Replies latest jw friends

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    However, I believe God is bigger than the Trinity. WAY bigger.

    ATJ, you present a false dilemma for believers such as myself and many others on this board. Most of us don't take these doctrines as the end of what God is, but as a tiny, tiny, tiny, beginning of some sort of insight into what is ultimately ineffable for finite beings.

    Christians, I am here to tell you that the world is WAY BIGGER then the Gospels, Jesus Christ, the Trinity, whatever.

    You go on the assumption that Christians do not think for themselves, or realize these things. The Gospel is a beginning and not an end, ATJ.

    A little Thomas Aquinas for you and others:

    The Road that stretches before the feet of a man is a challenge to his heart long before it tests the strength of his legs. Our destiny is to run to the edge of the world and beyond, off into the darkness: sure for all our blindness, secure for all our helplessness, strong for all our weakness, gaily in love for all the pressure on our hearts.

    In that darkness beyond the world, we can begin to know the world and ourselves, though we see through the eyes of Another. We begin to understand that a man was not made to pace out his life behind the prison walls of nature, but to walk into the arms of God on a road that nature could never build.

    Life must be lived, even by those who cannot find the courage to face it. In the living of it, every mind must meet the rebuff of mystery.To some men, this will be an exultant challenge: that so much can be known and truth not be exhausted, that so much is still to be sought, that truth is an ocean not to be contained in the pool of a human mind. To others, this is a humiliation not to be borne; for it marks out sharply the limits of our proud minds. In the living of life, every mind must face the unyielding rock of reality, of a truth that does not bend to our whim or fantasy, of the rule that measures the life and mind of a man.

    God has said so little, that yet means so much for our living. To have said more would mean less of reverence by God for the spendor of His image in us. Our knowing and loving, He insists, must be our own; the truth ours because we have accepted it; the love ours because we have given it. We are made in His image. Our Maker will be the last to smudge that image in the name of security, or by way of easing the hazards of the nobility of man.

    The Great Truths that must flood the mind of man with light are the limitless perfection of God and the perfectibility of man. The enticements that must captivate the heart of man are the divine goodness of God and man's gratuitously given capacity to share that divine life, to begin to posess that divine goodness even as he walks among the things of earth. The truths are not less certain because they are too clear for our eyes. The task before our heart is not to hold a fickle lover but to spend itself.

    Without these truths, and the others that fill out the pattern of a man's days, we are underfed weaklings, starving waifs, paralyzed in our living not only by lack of strength but even more by lack of light. To live a man must move by these steps of his heart; and how can he move until he can see and be drawn by the beauty of Goodness and Truth?

    No man can get such wisdom of himself in time to begin living his life or, indeed, in time to end it. Wisdom must be given to him, for it belongs to God. He can have this wisdom that must be had; but not through the stumbling steps of his own reasoning. He can have it if he will take it from his Maker. He can see in the darkness if he will look through the eyes of God. He can begin life with wisdom lent by God, and have his heart flooded with gratitude for the loan; or he can prefer the false light of the illusion that tells him he if self-sufficient, and die before he begins to live.

    A man hardly dare face mere natural life alone; alone, he cannot even dream of sharing the divine. Yet, to escape disaster, he must not only so dream, he must make the dream come true.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The bible, NT and OT, are simply a "map" to understanding God, they are simply ONE WAY in which God has revealed himself to Us, in their case via the writings of Man,

    The bible is just ONE LIMITED way of trying to understand God and how God is revealing Himself to Us, the others are the Universe, Ourselves ( being mad ein the image of God) and His Word, Christ ( not JUST the Christ of the NT, but the Christ that is revealed in Our hearts, Mind and spirit).

    To fully u nderstand God one must FULLY Understand:

    Man, the Universe, the Bible, God's living Word and Spirit.

    When we can FULLY and TOTALLY understand all that, then we are BEGINNING to be able to START to comprehend God.

    Not because God is so "complex", but because we are so "confused".

  • designs
    designs

    See this is why Naturalism is so much nicer and easier.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    See this is why Naturalism is so much nicer and easier.

    How woudl you defien Naturalisim?

  • designs
    designs

    In its more academic forms it is the sutdy of the Sciences- Biology, Astronomy etc..

    In its everyday form it is the study of how we interact with Nature both being aided by Nature and aiding and conserving Nature.

    Before I got involved with the Witnesses as a teenager my interests were with the Naturalists of the 1700's and 1800's and a few in the 20th century. John Muir was a childhood icon, also Theroux and Darwin and more recently I have been reading on the Astronomers of the 1700-1800s like the Herschel's.

    When I was around 7 my parents took us on a vacation to the Mesa Cliff Dwellings in Colorado and Arizona, completely changed my view of how the world worked from life in Suburbia. Civilizations who had lived for centuries in these cliff homes, they had agriculture, water supplies, warmth in the winter and shade in the summer. At that time you could actually walk through the cliff dwellings now its closed to the public but you can stand on the floor of the canyons and get a pretty good look at how they lived.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    Are we talking about literary naturalism, philosophical naturalism, or environmental naturalism? They are not all the same thing, and only one of them opposes some sort of theistic idea.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    In its everyday form it is the study of how we interact with Nature both being aided by Nature and aiding and conserving Nature.

    Interesting.

    Sound similar to the whole "steward of creation" thing in the Judeo-Christian religions.

  • designs
    designs

    PS, botch-

    I suppose I developed a hybrid system based on some of those categories mentioned and personal experience. People in Bible times did the best they could given where they were with technology to study Nature. Certain things were theorized by Socretes and Plato and Aristotle about the unseen forces that pushed curiosity forward. I think like Jeff I don't oppose people who believe in God, I understand the appeal since I believed in the God of the Bible for much of my life. Now it seems well ancient and newer ideas have filled the void.

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Jeff: You have no idea what I know about the Trinity. I call bullshit Sulla. BULLSHIT!

    I said you are ranting, didn't I? I feel like I said that already...

    Jeff: Share what you know. Or don't. But don't try your "I can't win when my team has the ball" tactic of trying to switch the conversation. Really, if you can't argue the Trinity with someone (gasp, like me) who is clearly not on your educational or intellectual level, what chance does your belief in the Trinity have?

    The teaching is either true or else not true. Whether you and I can talk about it obviously has no bearing on that. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are able to talk a whole pile of nonsense with people on your educational level; where's that got them?

    Jeff: You haven't given an argument. Still. But are content to say that no former JW is qualifed to talk about it at all.

    Pretty sure I never said that.

    Jeff: What I haven't conceded is that YOU (not all Trinitarians, YOU Sulla, ) and what you maintain are wrong in saying that I, among others, aren't qualified to talk about the Trinity.

    What if some other orthodox Christian made the same claim as I? Would you accept it if it came from somebody else? Doesn't matter, I guess. So prove me wrong, Jeff. Let's consider a subset of the question, ok? Multiple choice: St. Athanasius based his defense of the divinity of Christ in which aspect of religious study? a) ecclesiology b) soteriology c) eschatology In just a few sentences, explain his argument. Should be easy for a guy like you.

    Jeff: Is that your tactic? Are you looking for someone to talk about the Trinity that you respect?

    Not really. I've been trying to avoid the topic, but you keep bringing it up.

    Jeff: However, if you come on an internet forum of former JW's, who are read, educated, and experienced in life, and expect us to fall over because you mention Thomas Aquinas's name? Wow. Good luck there.

    Of course I don't expect that, Jeff. I do expect people who are read, educated, and experienced in life to NOT blithely suppose the giants of Christian thought can simply be dismissed as believing something that is merely illogical. Worse, that the minds here can see the obvious errors in thinking associated with the Trinity but those guys couldn't. Which is simply to say, I expect people who are really widely-read and experienced to have graduated to understanding that they are not the only smart people ever to have walked the earth. Such a viewpoint is adolescent, at best. As I have said before, it is an unlovely trait of JWs; one that is all too often kept long after one breaks his association with them.
  • designs
    designs

    So Sulla did you come back to answer the question I asked- were you a Jehovah's Witness.

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