Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff 161 Replies latest jw friends

  • PSacramento

    For many, with an incomplete understanding of their own religion, the JW's with thier "answer for everything", is very refreshing.

    People that want the answers given to them find the JW methodology great, all they have to do is follow the rules and they will be saved.

    How many JW's AS Jw's fact checked what was written in the Awakes and the WT mags?

    It is a nice religion that offers a salvation plan that is outlined simply and is based on works:

    Door-to-door service.

    The study of WT literature

    Going to meetings

    Get baptized in the name of Jehova, Christ and the WT Organization.

    And done.

  • AllTimeJeff

    Sulla, thank you for clarifying yourself. I think that is a big parsing of words on your part, although I am sure I can be accused of the same thing.

    I would much rather generalize on theology, ideas, and doctrines than I would people.

    The Christian message is more than the Trinity, and for all of our debate on the matter, I do not reject Christianity because of the Trinity. I see the value in 6 books of the Bible specifically; the 4 gospels, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes.

    The other books read by themselves, without trying to see something that isn't in them, reveals more about the people and thinking of their time.

    I also want to comment on the reverse of your last statements: on my next comment.... :)

  • botchtowersociety
    This is fine with me. It is one thing to explain your view of god, quite another to insist you understand the nature of god to such a degree that you would feel comfortable insisting on that view to others.
    If that isn't your intention, that is fine. That is certainly my impression though.

    Please allow me to disabuse you of that impression. I do not insist on my view upon others, I merely defend what I myself believe when it is questioned or criticized--mostly only to correct misconceptions and attempt to provide a more complete explanation/picture. In these matters, it is up to our individual conscience and judgement. I cannot prove one thing or another, and neither can anyone else, so it would be wrong of me to impose my view.

  • AllTimeJeff

    Sulla, I find this remarkably close to the pot calling the kettle black on your part.

    Thank you, Jeff. But, to clarify, I don't think I've said ex-JWs suffer from low intelligence. What I have said, and continue to hold, is that

    a) The choice to become a JW is an imperfect signal of

    1) intellectual laziness and

    2) arrogance.

    The whole reason why I questioned you in the first place about being a JW is that this is a remarkably incomplete viewpoint. I, as many here on the forum, became JW's in a flurry of teenage excitement and were baptized as minors. Speaking for me specifically, I was 13. Totally taken advantage of. While I do accept responsibility for what happened to me in my adult life (which includes the lack of laziness to study up, leave the cult, etc) I wasn't of proper mind to make such a decision, nor did I have any idea what I was getting into.

    I would hardly call my baptism a choice made by a sober, adult mind.

    I will grant you that any excited JW teenager is arrogant. I will also put out there for your intellectual consideration that any "go getter" teen is going to be VERY arrogant. It's just part of the maturing process. I give a pass to most arrogant teens because of that.

    Teens are also very trusting, so without proper guidance they aren't going to consider every possibility. That is why the baptism of minors by JW's is among their most insidious and disgusting practices in my view.

    There is one point that I agree on with you in principle, but I would frame it very differently. I agree that there is a difference when an adult who has never been exposed to the Witnesses agrees to become a JW. It was my experience with those that they in some way were emotionally damaged/fragile and were thus easy prey to the tactics of JW recruiting. Do I think that the majority are intellectually lazy? I think you underestimate the power of a cult in that case, esp when they influence a person to not consider outside sources of information. Arrogant? No. Some are for sure. But many are humble, scared, would rather gnaw their own arm off instead of knocking on a strangers door, and absolutely think they are doing it for Jehovah. That doesn't sound like arrogance to me.

    I think though that the people on this board that you are dealing with are giving you good reasons why they reject certain theology, including the Trinity. You have stated that it is a waste of time in your view to discuss/debate the Trinity with non believers on the internet. (which I do agree with in spite of my actually trying to engage you before)

    Whether you realize it or not, you are implying that those who have rejected the Trinity are either/or intellectually lazy and arrogant. That is a ridiculous premise that should rejected out of hand.

    If a man should be judged not on the color of their skin but on the content of their character, then a person making an argument should be judged, not on the extent of specific education, but on the soundness of their argument and logic. Thus, name dropping in of itself to me is an arrogant cop out to prop up a belief.

  • designs

    PSac- 'Catholic' was directed at the RCC. Sulla and a few other xJWs I have know became Catholic in the subsequent years foolowing their JW life. Unusual but not unheard of, one guy had been a Bethelite when my brother was at Bethel in the early 70's, I think he admired William F. Buckley..

  • PSacramento
    PSac- 'Catholic' was directed at the RCC. Sulla and a few other xJWs I have know became Catholic in the subsequent years foolowing their JW life. Unusual but not unheard of, one guy had been a Bethelite when my brother was at Bethel in the early 70's, I think he admired William F. Buckley..


    There's a moderate for you ;)

    I am a catholic myself, not A RCC mind you since I don't recognize the authority of the pope and such, but catholic is probably the best description for what I believe, outside of Christian of course :)

  • designs

    PSac- yes I think more and more Christians are taking a universal approach to their Faith, very different from the era of Creeds and Councils.

    Have certain xJWs simply replaced Fred Franz for St. Augustine or Martin Luther.

  • PSacramento

    Augustine was a great theologian, I am reading his confessions and its a facinating read.

    That said, one man's opinion means no more than any other's and Augustine was a man of his time.

    I think that itis fine to see certain theologians as "guides" in our quest, but not as the destination.

  • designs

    As an outsider to the Church of Rome a person can take a different approach to historical figures like St. Augustine. If you are going to take the RCC Faith in any type of a serious practice the Saints take on a very different level as they are part of the Services. I spent a summer in Spain with my Catholic BIL and we went to dozens of Cathedrals, how you behave is very different from any Protestant Service someone might be familiar with.

  • designs

    Should we help free Sulla from his new Cult, read up on St. Augustine's The Confession, and City Of God. Fred Franz often channeled ol Augustine

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