Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff 161 Replies latest jw friends

  • designs

    Oh please now we're on to the Charleston...

  • bohm

    Sulla: I will take random wikipedia knowledge for 300.

    All versions of the trinity has been completely refuted by scholars, and i am surpriced you are not familiar with their work.

  • AllTimeJeff

    Keep talking Sulla....

    I promise I don't give a shit about your education. What bothers me is that you haven't learned enough about a subject like the Trinity to have any sort of opinion worth listening to, but that this does not stop you from spouting your opinion.

    You have no idea what I know about the Trinity. I call bullshit Sulla. BULLSHIT!

    Share what you know. Or don't. But don't try your "I can't win when my team has the ball" tactic of trying to switch the conversation. Really, if you can't argue the Trinity with someone (gasp, like me) who is clearly not on your educational or intellectual level, what chance does your belief in the Trinity have?

    You haven't given an argument. Still. But are content to say that no former JW is qualifed to talk about it at all.

    Get over yourself.

    Even on the thread where i admit that I argued the Trintiy on a thread where I saw arguing the Trinity as a waste of time, the only thing you point out is that I argued. Ok. Point conceded.

    What I haven't conceded is that YOU (not all Trinitarians, YOU Sulla, ) and what you maintain are wrong in saying that I, among others, aren't qualified to talk about the Trinity.

    Is that your tactic? Are you looking for someone to talk about the Trinity that you respect?

    Geez, this is really all about you anyway. So be it.

    Sulla, with all my heart, you don't have to defend what you believe. I don't. I have some ideas, some beliefs that are important to me. I wouldn't, don't and won't, talk about them or argue them. They are for me.

    So if the Trinity is important to YOU, that IS different. I respect that and hope it brings you peace and stability.

    However, if you come on an internet forum of former JW's, who are read, educated, and experienced in life, and expect us to fall over because you mention Thomas Aquinas's name? Wow. Good luck there.

  • AllTimeJeff

    People, mankind, are more important than the Trinity, and old, outdated theology.

    I bet you that Jesus would agree.

  • garyneal

    Hmm, at first when you mentioned Sulla, Jeff, I thought you were actually admiring her reasoning on the Trinity and that she was an old poster who is no longer posting here. Then she shows up and you and she have your debate and I can tell that my original impression of your opinion of her was simply a tongue in cheek statement.

    I studied up on the Trinity, or more correctly, on other's interpretation of it two years ago when I found myself in a crisis concerning what was the Truth in terms of theology. I found that the Jehovah's Witnesses representation of the Trinity was off and realized that my view of it was off too. I believed in what could be considered the oneness gospel concerning my view of the Trinity. Truth is, most people who go to church and call themselves Christian do not really know what the Trinity really is. For a belief that is so important in their lives, you would think they would spend a little more time learning about it. That is why, I believe, many of them fall so easily for the Jehovah's Witnesses argument against the Trinity. Ignorance, plain and simple, an ignorance that I once shared.

    My looking into the scriptures with an open mind, taking into account what each side had to say, led me to conclude that both sides have legitimate arguments for their belief / non-belief in the Trinity.

  • AllTimeJeff

    I know that the Trinity is mis-represented by Jehovah's Witnesses.

    It bears saying as well that Jehovah's Witnesses are also mis-represented.

    How many times did I read as a JW that we celebrated Good Friday, occasionally Easter? I have read articles where JW's believe all sorts of things.

    I am well aware that there are many ways to interpret and believe the Trinity. I do not believe that the Trinity is what JW's described it to be.

    Being mis-represented is one issue, but it isn't the main issue.

    If you garyneal, have an understanding of the Trinity that differs from Sulla (who knows if it is different or the same, as no one seems to be able to encapsulate their views in a few sentences so far) that's cool. In addition, if that particular theology balances you, believe me, that is wonderful.

    While Sulla and I are probably boring everyone to tears right now (my apologies for what that's worth) it is very hard to say that a particular theology is relevant/superior when one isn't willing to share it.

    For what this is worth, I have read up on a variety of information on the Trinity after I read one of leolaia's essays on the matter. While JW's definitively lie about the Trinity, that doesn't give the theology behind it a free pass either.

    In addition, monotheism is rampant through the OT, and there are legitimate issues regarding accepting the OT as part of 'sacred scripture' and having a new doctrine co be introduced after the time of Jesus in the NT.

    I have looked into the bible with an open mind as well and have obviously come to different conclusions.

  • AllTimeJeff

    Hopefully this goes without saying, but it is one thing to have your theology/viewpoint bring you balance, peace, etc. It is quite another thing when your viewpoint causes you even mentally to have to go against others who differ in belief for very legitimate reasons. If that is the case then I have to question your theology, your world view, the whole enchilada.

    If your theology/world view pits you against others in the world, then your world view is small and limiting. I know I won't change you if you feel Jesus is coming, whatever.

    However, I believe God is bigger than the Trinity. WAY bigger.

    Christians, I am here to tell you that the world is WAY BIGGER then the Gospels, Jesus Christ, the Trinity, whatever.


    OUTLAW`s Trinity..

    Pretty Women serving me Beer and KFC..


  • garyneal
    If you garyneal, have an understanding of the Trinity that differs from Sulla (who knows if it is different or the same, as no one seems to be able to encapsulate their views in a few sentences so far) that's cool. In addition, if that particular theology balances you, believe me, that is wonderful.

    Hmmm, when I first read this I thought you were asking if I could try sum it up in a few sentences. Upon rereading it, it appears you were just saying SHALOM. However, if my first impression is correct then all I can say is 1) I learned about the Nicean view of the Trinity when I started my search two years ago and that one seems to fit the Bible best, 2) I came up with a view myself several years ago that seems to be more inline with the Oneness gospel, and 3) I often hear from other Christians that the Trinity is similar to myself being a father, husband, and a son at the same time.

    Only the first one fits the Bible best (assuming you can fit it at all), the other two show ignorance (especially the third one) of what the Bible says. Given that the majority of Christians, when pressed, will opt for the third explanation shows that Christians in general are ignorant of the Bible in general (just ripe for a 'knowledgeable' Jehovah's Witness).

    But I must say, in regards to my personal views of what is the correct Trinity teaching, I have to cede the fact that upon reading the Bible, the Trinity does not seem to be its main teaching. Yeah, there are verses that speak to Jesus being God but in order to even attempt to 'prove' the Trinity, one has to cobble a bunch of verses together from disperate writings that may or may not have been intended to be cobbled together like that. The only time the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned together as being one was in 1 John 5:7-8 and only in a King James Bible for this text did not appear in older manuscripts. Of course, there is also Matthew 28:19 which is cited less often.

    I think what made me had to take an honest look at the doctrine was when I was going over the blood doctrines of the witnesses and remarking at how convoluted they were and concluding that a doctrine that is THAT convoluted screams, "I am manmade!" That was when I had an epiphany and realized that the same conclusions could be made about the Trinity. It took some time but I too now see it as a dogma.

  • PSacramento

    I never thought that I would get as engrossed om theology as I have become and in great part because of the likes of Narkissos, TC and Leolaia and also because of questions and thread like those by ATJ, Nicolaus and Sabastious and others.

    I am currently reading the confessions of ST Augustine and it is facinating to read that 1600 years ago, so many of the same issues present believers and doubters TODAY, were being presented to one of the greatest theologians ever.

    The facianting thing with theology is how one can coem into it with a certain preconceived view of what it is suppose to be and then get blown aways about what it CAN be.

Share this