Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man (page 9)

bluesapphire

If life is independent from the human (or animal), is it something God can move around? Can it be stored in heaven or hell? Does it still live, and can it think?
It just demonstrates that by getting rid of the soul/spirit, the WTS has created an afterlife doctrine that is logically self-contradictory.
Yadirf, it doesn't help that you call it a "gift". That is another metaphor. But you indeed seem to argue that "life" is a thing, and then you run counter to offical JW doctrine. After all, we have a gift, we aren't a gift. If life is a gift, and life is soul, then we have a soul, we aren't a sou

Wow! Jan you just put into words what I couldn't for so many years. This is going to my permanent file.

Yadirf

Faithful2Jah

Because without some continuity nothing is "the same."

And so you feel that if you were to pass into nonexistence and then later come back to life it wouldn't be the same you. If not you then who would it be? Cannot God recreate a person without the result being a different person?

So what you're really getting at is that you hold to the belief that the soul is something immortal, right?

Yadirf

bluesapphire

Wow! Jan you just put into words what I couldn't for so many years. This is going to my permanent file.

And, in your own words, what exactly would that be, may I ask?

Yadirf

Satanus

Friday

life, soul, essence, existence, very existence, himself, being

Well, the only thing that i can see that matches all your terms, and includes all the meanings, is what is popularly called spirit. An entity that includes thoughts/thinking, memories, feelings which would make it unique from a generic 'life force'. This spirit, then, is infused into the embryo at conceprion or sometime after that, making it a person as compared to a lump of protoplasm.

Spirit would be an organised energy form. As you know, energy cannot be destroyed.

SS

Faithful2Jah

Yadirf:

You asked: And so you feel that if you were to pass into nonexistence and then later come back to life it wouldn't be the same you. If not you then who would it be?

I feel that if I were to pass into nonexistence I could not "come back to life." God could create a new person like me, but it would not be me. It would be a copy of me. Like an identical twin. But it would not be me.

Dead people can be brought "back to life" but not nonexistent people. JWs have a different definition of death than that given in the Bible. The Bible describes dead people as "sleeping." Sleeping people are unconscious but they are not nonexistent. The Bible describes the resurrection of dead people as God "awakening" them. Sleeping people who exist can be woken up. Nonexistent people cannot be.

You asked: Cannot God recreate a person without the result being a different person?

Are you asking, "Can't God do anything, even if it seems impossible to us?" If you are, then I guess I have to say, "Yes." But the question is not what God can do. The question is what the Bible indicates God does do. And it indicates that God resurrects people by uniting their sleeping spirits with a new body.

You wrote: So what you're really getting at is that you hold to the belief that the soul is something immortal, right?

Wrong. Immortality is a gift that the Bible says God will give only to people whom He judges to be worthy of it. What I am saying is that the Bible clearly indicates that we all have spirits which God gave us and which return to Him upon our deaths and which sleep until the time God resurrects us by uniting our spirits with some sort of a body. (spirit + body = soul) At that time some will be given immortality and others will be condemned to eternal destruction. Then and only then will some people become completely "nonexistent."

ianao

Yadirf, what posessed you to ask bluesapphire to describe what she said she already could not put into words, in her own words?

uh...

D'uh.....

Yadirf

Faithful2Jah

Dead people can be brought "back to life" but not nonexistent people.

How can that be the case when people were "nonexistent" before they were created. If God can bring us into existence in the first place, why is it too much of a feat for him to bring us out of nonexistence?

Yadirf

Siddhashunyata

What was transferred? Yes a simple question but its consideration gives rise to a fresh breeze passing through our minds as we realize that the WTBTS is teaching two mutually exclusive doctrines about the soul, a major doctrine.... Liberating!

Yadirf

SS

"To be or not to be, that's the real question here." (Probably didn't quote that with precision, but it's close enough I suppose.)

Well, the only thing that i can see that matches all your terms, and includes all the meanings, is what is popularly called spirit. An entity that includes thoughts/thinking, memories, feelings which would make it unique from a generic 'life force'. This spirit, then, is infused into the embryo at conceprion or sometime after that, making it a person as compared to a lump of protoplasm.
Spirit would be an organised energy form. As you know, energy cannot be destroyed.

I think that your reliance upon what things are "popularly called" is perhaps what accounts for your not being able to grasp the point here. No I'm not referring to the "spirit" as commonly understood by Christendom to mean something that lives inside a person and which seperates at death to live on.

Look back at your list, #3.

3.A living being, especially a person: an earthquake that claimed hundreds of lives.

Michael the archangel is a "living being", is he not? Therefore, he is a "life". True? The person or life which Michael is was once transferred to the womb of Mary, but of course not in the form of an angel though.

Yadirf

Siddhashunyata

...we realize that the WTBTS is teaching two mutually exclusive doctrines about the soul, a major doctrine

Perhaps you would favor the board with an explanation of just how that proves to be the case.

Yadirf

Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man

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