Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man (page 6)

puzzled

Dakota....nicely put. Now if we could all only accomplish that then ....WE WINNNnnn!!

Yadirf

pseudoxristos

At first look, in Rev 12:7 where Michael and his angels are mentioned. It appears that he is over the angels as the "Head Angel". My only guess at an explanation would be that he and other angels are "Archangels" in charge of their own angels, I don't think that this would conflict with the my point of there being more than one "Archangel". Most likely "Satan" was also an "Archangel" and had his own angels. It still appears that Michael and Jesus are seperate individuals.

One thing that I think will help you determine for yourself whether there is MORE than one archangel or not is to undertake an investigation of why exactly the word "angel" as it applies to Michael is prefixed with the word "arch". Why the word arch? I have done this, and have concluded that it fittingly expresses Michael's superior position in relation to all the other angel's of God's creation. Michael's "position" is literally higher up than all the other angels, in that he is privileged to live in the stately vicinity of God's heaven (the 4th and last heaven out/up from earth's perspective) ... which is UP ABOVE the arc (from which the word "arch" is derived), a division line, that separates God's heaven from the heaven all the other angels call home (the 3rd heaven).

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, you might be helped by taking a look at http://4heavens.homestead.com/21.html There you will see, via a diagram of God's spherical universe, the reason why Michael is an archangel, and of course the ONLY one of the sort. Of relevance to all this is that the apostle Paul made mention of having visited the "third heaven", having heard voices while there (angelic voices no doubt). -- 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

Yadirf

DakotaRed

Thank You Puzzled. All this I said, He Said, You said stuff really makes my head spin. We tend to allow ourselves to get so wrapped up in silly rhetoric that we lose sight of what is really said. In the end, I can't see how thinking anyone is Michael can amount to anything worthwile.

If Joe Cool from the Motor Pool or Jesus, is Michael, so freekin what!! Share your view, but keep loving each other. That should be the common factor to all exJWs, love, something the Watchtower knows little about!

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

Yadirf

SaintSatan

Ok, i just saw that you had already responded to my earlier question, that's why i edited out my last post.
It was the personal life of Michael himself, his being, his very existence, which God transferred into the womb of Mary. Note: Life = existence = soul
Would this be his life force as defined in the insight book pg 246 pp3?

I haven't the time right now to confer with the publication you mention. No, I'm not referring to the "life force". I'm referring to Michael's life itself. I will say that the WTS has a very slight adjustment to make regarding the meaning of the word "soul". Also, the Society isn't fully correct in its definition of what Sheol/Hades is either. Not far off, but incorrect nonetheless. But I expect that such matters will get ironed out, according to Daniel 11:35.

The dead samuel story ... doesn't need any explanation. It speaks for itself, just as samuel did.

Samuel was DEAD! Dead people don't talk. Or shall we visit a mortuary together in order to prove this to YOU?

Yadirf

Satanus

No, I'm not referring to the "life force". I'm referring to Michael's life itself

More than michael's life force? What else would be added, transferred to the womb of mary, to make up 'michael's life itself'?

SS

pseudoxristos

Yadirf,

I don't think you are going to be able to prove the Michael/Jesus theory, which is never clearly stated in the Bible, with another theory that is even more obscure than the first.

That is an interesting link though. It looks like somebody drew pictures while reading the book of II Enoch 1:1-11:6.

The fact is, that there is simply not enough evidence in the cannon
of the bible to come to the conclusion that Michael and Jesus are the same. At the same time, you can't prove they are different. That is why this debate is growing in length. Nobody is going to prove anything to anybody, with just the Bible.

Much more evidence of Jewish thought on this subject can only be found by looking at non-cannonical writings of that period. I still believe they were not the same based on these other writtings.

The Greek word 'arch' which means beginning, origin, ruler, has nothing to do with the english word 'arc' or it's Latin origin 'arcus' which means bow. The Greek word for bow is 'toxon'.

Yadirf

SaintSatan

You can't see the difference between a person's life itself and the life force that is responsible for its existence?

Yadirf

Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.

Yadirf

pseudoxristos

That is an interesting link though. It looks like somebody drew pictures while reading the book of II Enoch 1:1-11:6.

The second book of Enoch, eh? That's funny, and thanks for the laugh (seriously). But I happen to be the one that put together the images there at that "link". And they have a scriptural basis, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Although I'm reasonably sensitive to the leadings of God's spirit I'm not a dreamer.

I don't think you are going to be able to prove the Michael/Jesus theory, which is never clearly stated in the Bible, with another theory that is even more obscure than the first.

It's all too reasonable for it to be a "theory", and I don't find it the least bit "obscure".

The Greek word 'arch' which means beginning, origin, ruler, has nothing to do with the english word 'arc' or it's Latin origin 'arcus' which means bow. The Greek word for bow is 'toxon'.

I don't believe that you can be that sure of things. Can you prove that the English word "arc" isn't associated with or possibly even derived from the Greek word "arch"? Do you think that it's by mere coincidence that they are spelled almost identical?

The reason that Jesus, although being an angel too, has his residence in the 4th heaven along with God is due to his unique status ("glory") as God's "only-begotten son." (John 1:14) Jesus assuredly is "Michael the [only] archangel." (Jude 9) As to why he is, a knowledge that the universe and the heavens are all spherical in shape helps to provide the clue necessary for understanding the prefix "arch". The clear implication comes from the fact that an arch (and the English spelling/translation is archangel) is something bowed or curved, the arch of our foot being a familiar example. But more to the point is the fact that the heavens have the shape of an arch. The boundary that divides the 3rd and 4th heavens is in the shape of an arch. Jesus resides above the arch of the angelic heaven -- thus, his being an "arch" angel describes his SUPERIOR position in relation to all other angels. Because of his father's wishes he is the second most important and powerful person in God's spherical, multi-heaven universe. You call attention to the fact that "arch" is a Greek word that suggests "ruler" etc., and I might add that it also means "head", but the fact remains that the Greek word is translated into English as "arch" and combined with the word "angel". What does arch mean in the English language? Not particularly "beginning" or "origin", right?

Yadirf

Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.

jerome

if jesus = michael

and john 3:16 is true then

how many gods do jws believe in?

also does the bible call the angels gods.

the bible is a two edged sword
wield it the wrong way and it you WILL cut yourself!

aChristian

Dakota,

You asked: Why would Jesus descend from heaven with the voice of one lower than himself?

Michael will anounce Christ's return as he leads a procession of angels. Remember, Christ will return with "all the angels with him." The same verse also tells us that Christ's return will be announced by a "trumpet's call." Does this mean Jesus is a trumpet?

You spoke of "the message of God's Kingdom. That being found at John 13:34, 35. Love one another just as I have loved you! When we learn to love one another, in spite of differing views and beliefs, then I feel we have conquered the world and may receive salvation."

I hope you didn't mean that literally. Love is certainly very important. But it is not THE message of God's kingdom. And showing endless love to everyone will not gain us salvation.

We can discover the real message of God's kingdom by looking at what the apostles preached. The apostle Paul said, "We preach Christ crucified." In fact, Paul said that in his ministry he had "resolved to know nothing" "except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1 Cor. 1:23, 2:2) The apostles spent all their time telling people about Jesus Christ and what He had done for them. The meassage they preached was that if people would only believe in their hearts that Jesus Christ's sacrificial death was a sufficient payment for all their sins, God would forgive them completely for all of their unrighteousness, and He would then give them the gift of eternal life.

Many religions besides Christianity also preach the need for us to love one another. However, unless we put our faith in Jesus Christ and in the power of His sacrificial death to pay for all of our sins, all the love we show to others and all the good works we perform on their behalf will be as valuable in gaining salvation as a pile of dirty rags.

Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man

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