Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man

by plmkrzy 130 Replies latest jw friends

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  Solace

  Yadirf:
  The truth is in the bible,
  dust it off and put the W.T.S literature aside.
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  DakotaRed

  The doctrine of the Trinity is supported Biblically in numerous places and I would be pleased to list them if interested.

  Sorry, RWC, but the trinity is a lot of bunk. I hate to have agree with JWs on something, but I knew the trinity was wrong many years before becoming a JW. Even as an ex, I see no reason to embrace what I feel is the single biggest lie perpetrated on Christians.

  I really have little or no desire to engage you ina trinity debate, but will if you really wish. Be forewarned, I have spent some 50 years reading the Bible and have delved even deeper into the translations than most JWs ever thought. I do not rely on Watchtower material to guide me in my search, but have found extensive evidence and articles, from mostly nonJWs, that show the falseness of the trinity.

  An excellent book written by a nonJW you might seek is "The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound," by Anthony Buzzard. This man taught the trinity at acollege level for some 20 years or more. Doing his own research, he discovered the falseness of the trinity and now teaches against it. His book is readily available through Amazon.com. I'd loan you my copy, but still refer to it for research.

  take care and good hunting.

  If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
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  Solace

  Dakota,
  I used to say the same thing.
  Im not saying that I believe the trinity but there are more scriptures that support the trinity doctrine than the J.W. doctrine that claims Jesus is Michael.
  Notice my comment on previous page.
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  ofcmad

  Yardif -
  Your wrong on two things.

  1. Micheal the archangel was referred as "ONE OF the chief princes" in the book of Daniel.

  2. Micheal is NOT the only angel in God's heaven.

  ofcmad

  "Noah was a drunk and look what he accomplished." The Metatron/ Dogma
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  DakotaRed

  Hi Heaven,

  To me, the main scriptural support for the trinity come from translations with a trinity twist. By that, I mean the translators put their own bias into their work, Yes, the dubs did the same thing with their NWT. That is why I have never relied on any single translation, not even when I was active.

  I never used the NWT until I became a JW myself. In fact, I had never even heard of it before. So, all of my preJW research was used with mostly the NIV, KJV and such. The main attraction of the dubs to me was their denial of the trinity.

  Going back to Michael, even though I think Jesus and Michael are most likely one and the same, to me it really doesn't matter. My salvation will not come because I think Jesus to be Michael or even if he isn't. However, I do think worshipping the Son before the Father, which is how I see the trinity belief, could very have an effect.

  This is not a point that I feel I should argue you or anyone else into sharing with me, just the way I see it. Whether or not it has any effect and whether or not there is even any salvation is left up to powers far above me.

  If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
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  plmkrzy

  Crap! I lost my responses I took to long. I'll try and remember and ask them again.

  Please keep this going it is really interesting.
  PLM

  Heaven
  I get where your comming from regarding the scripture in jude i'm going in a different direction with it though i'm thinking of it like this and it has nothing to do with the WTBTS version of scriptures. Michael the Arcangel could not AT THAT TIME because at that time he did not have the Authority but his life on earth as Jesus the Christ and savior change all that so now when the time is right when ever that is Micheal the Arcangel will return to battel evil and kick it's but. Thats my take on it anyway.
  plm

  Dakota, Thanks for the e-mail
  I think your probably right about the importance one way or the other it probably doesn't matter but I find it more intrieging(typo) than reading "Lord of the Rings"

  I wanted to ask a couple of you some q's hopefully you'll check back tomorrow or later.
  
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  aChristian

  The JW definition of "death" is total nonexistence. So much so in fact, that the Witness definition of a "resurrection" is God creating a new copy of you from His memory. A copy which they say will have all your old memories but will not include any actual part of the "old you."

  Most Christians strongly object to this JW definition of a "resurrection." They say that such a newly created copy of them would not really be them at all. They say that for the "resurrected" person to truly be "them" there must be some continuity of existence from the original person to the resurrected one. They also say that the JW teachings concerning death and resurrection are not biblical. I agree.

  The Bible teaches that everyone has a "spirit" within them which survives the death of their body and "returns to God who gave it" at the time of their death. (Ecl. 12:6,7) If this is not the case then Jesus' words recorded in Matthew 10:28 make no sense. There we find that Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." If we are, in effect, nothing but bodies, as JWs teach, and if no part of us survives our deaths, as JWs also teach, then those who kill our bodies do, in fact, kill our souls. But as I said, the scriptures indicate otherwise. For instance, Luke 23:46 tells us that just before breathing his last breath, "Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' " And Acts 7:59 tells us that "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' " Do you really think that when Jesus and Stephen spoke the words they did that they thought no part of them was going to survive the death of their bodies?

  You may also want to read 1 Samuel 28:7-20 without wearing JW glasses. There we find that after the death of Samuel, Saul consulted a spirit medium in order to seek Samuel's advise. This passage of scripture clearly indicates that Saul's attempt to contact Samuel in this way, following Samuel's death, was successful. Verse 15 tells us what the departed "Samuel said to Saul." Verse 16 also tells us what "Samuel said" at the time. Verse 20 tells us that, following their conversation, Saul was "filled with fear because of Samuel's words." JWs say this must have been a demon impersonating Samuel. But this passage of scripture says nothing of the sort. Rather, it repeatedly tells us that "Samuel" himself was the one who was then speaking to Saul. For reasons which are quite clear to anyone who reads this entire passage and its larger context, God allowed Saul to successfully communicate with Samuel's "soul" or "spirit" following Samuel's death. Saul could not have done so if no part of Samuel had survived his death.

  The scriptures indicate that our "spirits" normally "sleep" following our deaths, prior to the time we are resurrected. (Acts 7:60; 1 Thes. 4:14,15) Thus we can understand Samuel's comment to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (1 Sam. 28:15) I believe that the Bible indicates that a "resurrection" occurs when a person's departed spirit is again united with a body of some sort. (A spirit and a body together form a "soul.") In the case of Samuel, evidently God allowed his spirit to temporarily inhabit and speak through the body of the witch of Endor. To me, this Bible passage and others indicate that our departed spirits remain unconscious or "asleep" until they are put into a new body, much like a piece of computer software remains "inanimate" until it is "animated" by a computer's hardware.

  JWs love to quote a verse which says that "the dead are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecl. 9:5) But there is a big difference between a person being "asleep" or unconscious and a person being nonexistent, as JWs say all who have died are. As I think I have shown, the scriptures indicate that JWs are wrong about this, and that there is, in fact, a continuity of existence from the original person to the resurrected one. And in the case of the preexistent Christ, a continuity of existence from the heavenly person to the earthly one.
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  DakotaRed

  Feel free to email me any questions anytime. I don't have the answers, though, just my opinions. I wish for everyone else to formulate their own opinions on things, whether any agree or disagree with me. That is a freedom we didn't have with the dubs.

  If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
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  DakotaRed

  For what I consider a pretty good article on souls going to heaven, click on the link below. The author has never been a JW and is not iterested in being one, although he sometimes agrees with them too.

  I leave it up to you to decide whether or not to accept it.

  http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/souls.htm

  A note for aChristian. I doubt too many here are still wearing JW glasses. Just becuase we may see and agree with some of their beliefs does not constitute being misled by them. May I recommend you remove the glasses of traditional orthodoxy and then view the Bible. One thing I have been striving to do of late is to view the Bible from the perspective of the Jewish thought, since it was written mostly by Jews. I find that it makes a lot more sense than viewing in light of 20th Century Christian thought, which I feel has perverted many scriptures to fit their doctrines.

  Either way, good luck in your search and on your journey.

  One final thought. If our souls go off to heaven, why does every church teach Matthew 5:5, The meek shall inherit the earth?

  If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
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  plmkrzy

  DakotaRed

  I prefer peoples opinions How we interpret different scripture is whats makes most conversation. If we all took everything the exact same way we would be a world of people barking at cars as they drove by.

  Achristian

  I think I probably interpret the meaning of the soul different then anyone because so far I have yet to hear anyone say anything that rings a bell for me JW Catholic Mormon Quaker or any other.

  I have for a long time (and I would expect to be ridiculed for it) believed that the difference between our body and our soul exists in each individules blue print (DNA if U will). Our bodies carry (contain,hold,package)our identity which is ours forever. Just because the body may detierate and die our DNA or the blue prints of our soul remains forever and when God wants to bring it back he will. As for the memory part of it is concerned I have tried to put that together with that throey but how are you or anyone going to know if you will have your old memory after you die unless you have died and can tell us about it.
  plm