Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. Read Hebrews chapter 1. The whole chapter makes it quite clear that Jesus was not and is not an angel. Verse 13 asks, "To which of the angels did God ever say, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enimies a stool for your feet'?" The answer to this rhetorical question, which is made quite clear in the previous 12 verses, is obviously, "None."
Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man
by plmkrzy 130 Replies latest jw friends
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siegswife
I think that God's ways aren't our own. When He said His Name, that Word was filled with Life...with His Spirit. That Being, the Word YHWH(pre earth Jesus), then set out to accomplish the meaning of "I AM".
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pseudoxristos
puzzled,
Good point. I'll have to admit, that I have never been a JW. I did attend meetings for several years, because of my wife (now ex-wife). So I am not exactly sure what the JW slant on Revelation is concerning Michael/Jesus.
At first look, in Rev 12:7 where Michael and his angels are mentioned. It appears that he is over the angels as the "Head Angel". My only guess at an explanation would be that he and other angels are "Archangels" in charge of their own angels, I don't think that this would conflict with the my point of there being more than one "Archangel". Most likely "Satan" was also an "Archangel" and had his own angels. It still appears that Michael and Jesus are seperate individuals.
I will have to do more research on the book of Revelation, to give a more intelligent response. I've avoided it because of it's cryptic nature.
The book of 1 Enoch also fully developes the idea of the Messiah, called the Righteous One, and the Son of Man. He is depicted as a pre-existent heavenly being, possessing all dominion and sits on his throne passing judgment upon all mortal and spiritual beings. It doesn't appear that the Messiah and Michael are considered to be the same in 1 Enoch.
I probably have not really answered your question about Revelation, though I would like to know a little more detail on the JW view of Jesus/Michael in Revelation.
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Yadirf
aChristian(giggle)
You may also want to read 1 Samuel 28:7-20 without wearing JW glasses.
Have you ever tried reading that same account without your own particular type of "glasses" on?There we find that after the death of Samuel, Saul consulted a spirit medium in order to seek Samuel's advise. This passage of scripture clearly indicates that Saul's attempt to contact Samuel in this way, following Samuel's death, was successful.
False! Take those glasses off.Verse 15 tells us what the departed "Samuel said to Saul."
Well, yeah, but take those glasses off. In that case you might be able to perceive that it was all the doings of an angel God used.Verse 16 also tells us what "Samuel said" at the time. Verse 20 tells us that, following their conversation, Saul was "filled with fear because of Samuel's words."
It is true that Saul really believed that the voice he heard was that of Samuel's ... which were words of condemnation (clue).JWs say this must have been a demon impersonating Samuel. But this passage of scripture says nothing of the sort.
And neither does it say what you interpret it to mean.Rather, it repeatedly tells us that "Samuel" himself was the one who was then speaking to Saul.
Have you ever heard of discernment? Rather shrewd of God to pull this off on ole unfaithful Saul, don't you think?For reasons which are quite clear to anyone who reads this entire passage and its larger context, God allowed Saul to successfully communicate with Samuel's "soul" or "spirit" following Samuel's death. Saul could not have done so if no part of Samuel had survived his death.
You're as unaware of what God CAN do as was Saul. Think about it!Yadirf
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Satanus
edited
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DakotaRed
The Bible clearly teaches that our "spirits" do survive our deaths. I notice that you did not refute any of the scriptural arguments I made for this fact.
Well, that is somes view of what the Bible teaches. You see, your believing differently than I do is absolutely no threat to me at all. Sorry if my disagreeing with you threatens you.
I have found out over the years that we all think and see things differently. I believe we were either created that way or conditioned by culture, geographic, or even ethnic background that way. One of the problems I see worldwide today is so many get offended so easily by someone else not agreeing with them. That is why, in an earlier post, I said things were simply my opinion and that I do not feel the need to argue others into sharing my views. I leave that conduct to the dubs.
As for not refuting your scriptures, you are correct, I did not. I find it to be extremely scholastically dishonest to take single scriptures, often out of context of the surrounding verses, and use them to prove a pet belief. If my declining to engage you in a game of "my scholar says versus your scholar says" offends you, then you have my apology.
I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I will, however, share my views if asked.
If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
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puzzled
pseudoxristos
Thanks for the response. Everytime I read through Rev. I pick up on things I didn't the prior time.
As far as exactly how the JWs view all of this I can only offer a basic idea. I would always listen to what was taught but I didn't always agree. I've listened to many takes on the Bible over the years and I have been very stuborne when it came to my own opinions.
I think I am going to go back and read through it again and keep your statements in mind and see if I come up with something different.plmkrzy
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Yadirf
SaintSatan
Instead of trying to twist what the bible says, why don't you answer the question i asked you?
In what respect did I "twist what the bible says"? Could it be that what I did say was too clear for your complex mind to grasp.This is my post that you make reference to:
YadirfWhat life was transferred? -- SaintSatan
It was the personal life of Michael himself, his being, his very existence, which God transferred into the womb of Mary. Note: Life = existence = soul, even as death = nonexistence. I really don't understand why people here find this so difficult to grasp. What's so hard to understand about the idea that God can, and did, take the life of Michael and implant it into the womb of a woman, which would become known as "Jesus"? Surely that's no more unbelievable than the reverse of that happening, is it? Did not Jesus, who had existed in human form for 33 years, return to being a spirit creature upon being resurrected? Was it not the very same person (life) that had come down from heaven that then returned to heaven? -- Yadirf -
DakotaRed
Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. Read Hebrews chapter 1. The whole chapter makes it quite clear that Jesus was not and is not an angel. Verse 13 asks, "To which of the angels did God ever say, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enimies a stool for your feet'?" The answer to this rhetorical question, which is made quite clear in the previous 12 verses, is obviously, "None."
Okay, aChristian. It seems that you really wish to argue some points. Please note your single scripture above. "To which of the angels." Now, saying that Jesus is either the first creation, or even the archangel does not necessarily make him just an angel, does it? If there are actually more than one archangel, that still does not make them only angels. That would be like equating a private in the Army with a General. Both human, both men, but way different in experience, position and stature.
From the New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia online, we read under the heading of Saint Michael, the Archangel, the following;
Christian tradition gives to St. Michael four offices:
•To fight against Satan.
•To rescue the souls of the faithful from the power of the enemy, especially at the hour of death.
•To be the champion of God's people, the Jews in the Old Law, the Christians in the New Testament; therefore he was the patron of the Church, and of the orders of knights during the Middle Ages.
•To call away from earth and bring men's souls to judgment ("signifer S. Michael repraesentet eas in lucam sanctam", Offert. Miss Defunct. "Constituit eum principem super animas suscipiendas", Antiph. off. Cf. "Hermas", Pastor, I, 3, Simil. VIII, 3).Let's compare these four offices with the bible now.
•To fight against Satan.
Satan is Jehovah Gods chief advesary right now. So, who would Jehovah intrust as his chief general in fighting this advesary? Exodus 14:14 The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still." Could this mean that Jehovah himself is Michael? Of course not. Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Would not all authority also encompass being Jehovah God's
Chief general in the fight against Satan? Revelation 19:11-16 describes the "Word of God" as leading the Armies of heaven. Is not Jesus called "the Word of God?"•To rescue the souls of the faithful from the power of the enemy, especially at the hour of death. 1 John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. Acts 3:22 For Moses said, `The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut
off from among his people.' Who was the chief prophet raised up from amongst the Jews? Was it not Jesus?•To be the champion of God's people, the Jews in the Old Law, the Christians in the New Testament; therefore he was the patron of the Church, and of the orders of knights during the Middle Ages. Who is the Champion of all Christians? Is it not Jesus? 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood
that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Does not a mediator champion our cause? Yes, they do.•To call away from earth and bring men's souls to judgment. John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. God has granted authority to judge to no one except Jesus. Jesus grants judging to the 144,000, but that is a subject for another essay.1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Why would Jesus descend from heaven with the voice of one lower than himself? Could a lesser one in heaven actually grant anything to Jesus?
Whether or not this proves anything to anyone is up to them. It is nothing more than my opinion, just like your view is your opinion. Like I have said many times, I believe a lot of this rhetoric about Michael, Cross vs Stake, hellfire, etc, etc, is nothing more than stumbling blocks to finding the truth of the message of God's Kingdom. That being found at John 13:34, 35. Love one another just as I have loved you! When we learn to love one another, in spite of differing views and beliefs, then I feel we have conquered the world and may receive salvation.
Only time will tell.
If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?
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Satanus
Friday
Ok, i just saw that you had already responded to my earlier question, that's why i edited out my last post.
It was the personal life of Michael himself, his being, his very existence, which God transferred into the womb of Mary. Note: Life = existence = soul
Would this be his life force as defined in the insight book pg 246 pp3?In what respect did I "twist what the bible says"? Could it be that what I did say was too clear for your complex mind to grasp
I understood what you said. The dead samuel story is even simpler than what you said. It is even easier to understand the samuel story than your 'explanation' of it. It really doesn't need any explanation. It speaks for itself, just as samuel did.SS