"Overlapping generation" explanation - TRANSCRIBED EXTRACT from Friday's talk (DC 2011-12)

by AnnOMaly 149 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  sd-7

  Wow. So they're really impressing this on people's minds. Revelation 6:9-11 speaks of those who were KILLED for bearing witness about Jesus or whatever. But how many of the modern day anointed were KILLED for their preaching work? You can't assert that this applies to people who simply don't fit this description. Unless you're going to assert that they were killed by death itself. Right, that makes sense!

  The other problem is that those in Revelation 6:9-11 receive WHITE ROBES, which is what the GREAT CROWD is spoken of as wearing, NOT the 144,000. Oops! Oh, right, that's not a problem, either. Connecting this verse to Matthew 24:34???? Man!! They're doing a leap that the Super Mario Bros. would envy! Nah, this isn't even a leap--they've got their spiritual Tanooki Suit on and they're FLYIN'!

  Reading Revelation carefully would show you that the 144,000 are mentioned only twice, and in those verses, they are NEVER spoken of as being (1) resurrected (Revelation 7 shows an urgent need for the 144,000 to be sealed before the winds of destruction are unleashed, which would be pretty much irrelevant if they were 99% dead anyway, because there'd be no danger of them being harmed by destructive forces), (2) kings, or (3) priests. They are spoken of as being (1) sealed out of every tribe of Israel, (2) firstfruits to God, (3) bought from the earth [I argue there's a difference between being bought and being resurrected, and it's unlikely their resurrection would've been mentioned as anything but a resurrection if that term specifically applied to the 144,000], (4) mastering a new song that nobody else can master, (5) being virgins who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. The people who become kings and priests are spoken of as (1) being from every nation, tribe, etc., (2) having been killed for bearing witness to Jesus, and (3) receiving the first resurrection. But there's plenty of proof-texting that gets used to connect the dots to fit JW doctrine, as we know.

  Excellent point made that people who were baptized before 1914 thought Jesus had already been present since 1874. In which case, I suppose the overlap should extend to Russell, shouldn't it? Nah...that wouldn't make sense!

  Sounds like a great convention! "Excellent work today, Parker! Keep it up!"

  --sd-7
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  TD

  The explanation is total bunk like BOTR said. Jesus used the near demonstrative pronoun "This." In normal, unaffected usage, "This" means something close at hand at the moment you are speaking

  If Jesus had meant a generation nearly 1900 years in the future, he would have said, "That generation" NOT "This generation" (cf. Exodus 1:6)

  The only way around this is typology (i.e. Dual fulfillments) where the first fulfillment serves as a "Type" for a second and larger fulfillment. The problem here is that the typical fulfillment occured less than 40 years after the pronouncement was made. --Well within the span of a generation. JW's are yanking the rug out from under typological interpretation entirely by casting aside all similarity between type and antitype.

  Even if you forget all this, you still have to ask, "What exactly is the generation defining event?" It's certainly true that a generation can be defined around a shared event like the World War II generation or the generation of the Great Depression for example.

  But the speaker appears to think that it's enough for Group II to have simply been born before Group I passes away, which does not a generation make. If the anointing is the defining event, than Group II needs to be old enough to actually be anointed before Group I passes away.
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  yknot
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  wannabefree

  But the speaker appears to think that it's enough for Group II to have simply been born before Group I passes away

  Actually, they are saying that they overlap as anointed with Holy Spirit, thats why they say we are so close to the end now, because somebody who was anointed before Fred Franz died in 1992 would be considered an anointed contemporary of his, and since Freddy was anointed when Christ returned in 1914, his later in life anointed contemporaries are also a part of the 1914 generation, and that overlapped part of the generation is old too.

  You with little faith, only the Faithful and Discreet Slave (class) can fully understand this, loyalty to them is loyalty to God, appreciate that they understand it and accept it or you are doomed.
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  yknot

  Donny commented on pg 1:

  Talk states: Group 1 of this generation discerned the sign of Christ's presence in 1914. But they weren't merely born in 1914 nor merely alive to witness the start of Christ's presence. They were spirit-anointed in or before 1914.

  How can this be true? Up until around 1943 they were in the belief that Jesus returned in 1874. How could they discern his presence in 1914 when he had already been around for 40 years?

  my thoughts:
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  TD

  wanna

  Actually, they are saying that they overlap as anointed with Holy Spirit, thats why they say we are so close to the end now, because somebody who was anointed before Fred Franz died in 1992 would be considered a contemporary of one who was anointed in 1914, and that overlapped part of the generation is old too.

  Yes, That's makes a certain sense and although I don't agree with it, I would at least tell a JW that, "I see your argument."

  Last year, some of the speakers did made that idea clear:

  "Now Brother Franz lived on until the year 1992, so obviously he's part of that first group. So any present day anointed ones who were anointed before, let's say individuals like Brother Franz in that first group died off, would be considered contemporaries of the first group. They would be part of that generation that would see the beginning of the Great Tribulation."

  However a number of other speakers who gave the same talk did not, which makes me wonder what the outline actually said

  The transcripted talk from this year says nothing of the sort:

  As the first group grew older, the second group started to be born so that for a while the two groups overlapped one another - they were contemporaries of one another.

  The only overlap here is an overlap of life.
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  traveb

  I'm actually suprised they trotted out this overlap nonsense again this year. I suppose it buys them a few more years until they have to redefine generation again. To be honest, their 1995-2008 era generation doctrine made more sense. Most publishers that I've talked to were satisfied with that explanation but now it just seems like a confusing mess.

  I'm guessing however that the governing body didn't care for the 1995-2008 generation teaching because it didn't scare the average JW enough. When you have a nebulous, ill-defined "generation" of people, publishers figured out they could sell less magazines and start going to college. I think the governing body realized they screwed up so they came out with this overlap doctrine which puts a definite endpoint, or cap, on the "system of things".

  When there's no cap publishers start slacking.
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  TD

  To be honest, their 1995-2008 era generation doctrine made more sense.

  I know a lot of JW's were happy with it but did it make sense to you? How so?

  If (According to the 1995 explanation)

  This Generation = "Those contemporaneous with the sign who take no note" (i.e. The wicked)

  Pass Away = "Being destoyed at Armageddon"

  All these things = "The entire sign of the end"

  You get:

  "Those contemporaneous with the sign who take no note of it will not be destroyed at Armageddon until the entire sign of the end has occurred"

  --Which is a meaningless tautology.
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  clarity

  AnnOMally, thanks so much for this exposure to the truth pure crap of watchtower slight of hand! So grateful to be on the other side of this.

  By these words that you transcribed of the so called "new lite" generation teaching, it is easily seen that the gb has now set this in CEMENT!

  Last April they tested the waters and said this ...

  "He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. "

  This year, look how this has now been fully set as 'doctrine' !!

  "Well, like Revelation, the generation that jesus was referring to also consists of two groups of people who's lives overlap"

  So glib! (Glib - slippery, speaking smoothly, often too smoothly to be convincing)

  c
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  sir82

  Which is a meaningless tautology.

  Maybe that's the point - meaningless tautologies make more sense than " a generation is composed of 2 groups of overlapping people, and could conceivably stretch for 200 years or more".