How should I respond to a JW friend? (Australia)

by summerinvincible 115 Replies latest jw friends

  • InterestedOne

    Hi summerinvincible, Maybe it's not totally dead. You asked a clear question in the beginning which was

    So, did the Watchtower predict Christ's return in 1914?

    To which she responded

    yes, they did along with others

    In the information she's sent you, you have not read anything (double check the pages she recommended to make sure we're correct) that says they predicted Christ's return in 1914, only that they believed he had already returned in 1874, so you asked the following question:

    When did the Watch Tower start predicting Christ's return in 1914?

    I think it's worth seeing if she will answer clearly because her responses so far are murky.

    As for getting her to speak negatively about Camping & others, it looks like she is refusing to say anything about them on the grounds that she doesn't know enough about them & isn't interested in them. That's a convenient way for her to get out of having to use the same logic on the JW's. You may have a dead end there, but see if you can at least get her to answer your 1914 question for the sake of clarity. It would be good if she could see that her original impression that the WT predicted Christ's return in 1914 was incorrect. I wonder where she got that impression.

  • WontLeave

    No "good" JW will find an honest answer to this question, because that information is only contained in "apostate" literature (pre-1950 Watchtowers). The literature lies, JWs lie. All they care about is the promotion of the cult and whatever BS it's pushing this month. She can't look up the truth and nobody will tell her the truth, on this subject. The "Ministry of Truth" (from Orwell's 1984) has made sure that information is out of reach of JWs. The only way she'll find the real answer to that question is to openly rebel against her JW overlords and the vast majority of JWs are too brainwashed and braindead to do that.

  • summerinvincible

    Thanks guys.

    Her response didn't surprise me... I knew she wasn't going to fall into the trap of slagging off Camping etc, because that would force her to face facts. i.e. The Watchtower is no different.

    Another "off-topic" comment she made that also annoyed me was "How many are identified by their unity and love as Jesus said his followers would be?" .... Does she really believe that JWs are more 'united' than people of other religions??? I grew up Catholic, then got "saved" (born again) as an impressionable teenager, (and now I don't really believe anything)... but honestly, people from these other religions are just as united!

    I mean, in high school she told me that her Dad molested her, but now she claims it was her brother..... At any rate, I don't think molesting people falls into the category of "unity and love"!

    WontLeave - Can I ask why that is your username?

    Still undecided as to where to go from here, but I do have more burning questions for her....

    Such as.... Say Armageddon starts tomorrow. I know I'm gonna be destroyed by Jehovah, but what will become of my little girl, who isn't even 2 years old yet?? Watchtower literature says Jehovah would never send someone to hell for eternity because that would be cruel.... but apparently destroying children is AOK?!

    AND the whole blood transfusion thing. Apparently the rules have changed over the years in regards to this, with changes made as more "new light" comes through. Which means that people certainly would have died for no reason.

    ARGHH I can't imagine being that brainwashed!!! It makes me so mad!!!

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Hi summerinvincible.

    I just spotted your thread. I'll have a better look at it in the the morning.

    It's nice to see she is still playing with the bait.



  • summerinvincible

    Thanks mate!

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Tell her that you can't find anything in those articles to say that they predicted Christ's return in 1914, only that they thought it had already occured in 1874. What did the "Watchtower in December 1879, July 1880" say? Can you send scans please? Do they predict Christ's return in 1914?

    The references to 1914 call it "significant", "Kingdom of God would have obtained full, universal control", "annihilation of human institutions", "global troubles culminating in anarchy", "significant turning point for Jerusalem", "‘caught up in the clouds’ to meet the Lord" (Which is what Camping taught for May 21st and several earlier dates). Did any of this happen?

    How does she feel about the failure of the Watchtower to get any of these events right?

    How does she feel about the failure of Harold Camping to get any of his predictions right?

    Which scriptures did she quote about false prophets? We should be able to use them to try to get through to her.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    You have discovered that if you want to read what old Watchtowers say you can Google ZWT month year

    Ask her if she can find anything in those Watchtowers that says that Christ's return wasn't in 1874, or would occur in 1914?

    Ask her if any of the events predicted in those articles did actually occur?

    It might be a good idea to ask her for a list of events they predicted in those magazines that did occur and a list of events that didn't occur. You are a bit busy right now, or you would do it yourself.

    Don't send anything until we have a pick over those scriptures she sent.

  • summerinvincible

    Black Sheep, when you say "Tell her that you can't find anything in those articles to say that they predicted Christ's return in 1914", I'll take your word for it, because I don't have access to any of the materials she quoted from :)

    Here are the Bible references she quoted in regards to False Prophets:

    Matt 7:15-23

    Matt 44:11

    2 Peter 2:1,2

    1 John 4:1

    She has also invited me to the big convention in Perth next weekend :) .... I wonder how many secret apostates will be there? :)

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    I don't have access to any of the materials she quoted from :)

    Yes you do.

    I gave you links, plus a way to tell her how to find those links with a Google search.

    I'll have a look at those scriptures later.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    That is a great set of scriptures.

    She should have to explain how those scriptures do not apply to the religious group that produced the articles that she quoted you.

    Matt 7:15-23

    15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

    By their fruits YOU will recognize them Which 'fruits' in those articles were any good. When a fruit is no good, does changing it's description make it an acceptable fruit.

    Matt 44:11 Doesn't exist

    2 Peter 2:1,2

    2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.

    However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU How can she describe any of the predictions in the articles she quoted as not being false?

    1 John 4:1

    4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. I can't argue with that. Just look at the predictions made in those Watchtowers.

    Those scriptures all seem to be warning ABOUT the Watchtower.

    None of those scriptures leave loopholes for 'prophets' that change their prophesy after they have failed.

    If you have trouble putting all that together into an email for her, let me know, but remember that you know her better than I do. I would be expressing amazement that she quoted scriptures that seem to be describing the authors of the articles she quoted and asking how it is that she can't see how those scriptures relate to those authors.

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