How should I respond to a JW friend? (Australia)

by summerinvincible 115 Replies latest jw friends

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    That is a great set of scriptures.

    She should have to explain how those scriptures do not apply to the religious group that produced the articles that she quoted you.

    Matt 7:15-23

    15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

    By their fruits YOU will recognize them Which 'fruits' in those articles were any good. When a fruit is no good, does changing it's description make it an acceptable fruit.

    Matt 44:11 Doesn't exist

    2 Peter 2:1,2

    2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.

    However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU How can she describe any of the predictions in the articles she quoted as not being false?

    1 John 4:1

    4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. I can't argue with that. Just look at the predictions made in those Watchtowers.

    Those scriptures all seem to be warning ABOUT the Watchtower.

    None of those scriptures leave loopholes for 'prophets' that change their prophesy after they have failed.

    If you have trouble putting all that together into an email for her, let me know, but remember that you know her better than I do. I would be expressing amazement that she quoted scriptures that seem to be describing the authors of the articles she quoted and asking how it is that she can't see how those scriptures relate to those authors.

  • ziddina

    I added this to another thread, but...

    Maybe this thread could help?

  • summerinvincible

    Ack sorry, Matt 24:11 not 44:11

  • summerinvincible

    Also, is there really anything in the Proclaimers book about "how they came to the date of 1914, after further research"? I don't have the book...

    I assume the Bible references you quoted are from the New World Translation?

    If you have trouble putting all that together into an email for her, let me know

    That would be wonderful! I tend to get overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information, and have no idea where to start. If you put it together for me, then at least it would give me somewhere to start - and I can edit it to suit.

    Thank you Black Sheep! Will wait to see what you think about Matt 24:11

    Ziddina - thanks, will check out that thread.

  • summerinvincible

    Arghhh I tried to quote "If you have trouble putting all that together into an email for her, let me know" but I obviously clicked the wrong thing!

    How do I quote??

    And does this site ever stop asking for a validation code when you log in?

  • InterestedOne

    summerinvincible wrote:

    How do I quote??

    In the first toolbar of the text editor, notice there is a dropdown that says "styles." If you click that dropdown, it has an option called "quote." If you use that option, you can paste text, and the text will show up as a quote.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    This is a link to a PDF of the Proclaimers book. You might already have it, as I gave you the link earlier.

    I only ever have to log in if I am using a different computer, or browser, or JWN has a hiccup, which is rare. You might have to check a box, or change a setting in your browser.

    That would be wonderful! I tend to get overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information, and have no idea where to start.

    That is why I always tell people to just stick to one subject and thrash it to death and not let your Dub lead you around like you have a ring in your nose.

    What I worry about is if I put something together it won't sound like you. You should proof read what I write, not just for mistakes, but to make it sound like you.

    What Bible do you have? I should really quote from that. (Unless she quoted, in which case copy and paste of her quotes would be best.

  • summerinvincible

    Thanks. Will try the Proclaimers PDF again.

    Oh I'll definitely proof read what you write - won't just cut and paste. I'll change it so it sounds like how I naturally speak. Only if you have time of course!! Otherwise I'll give it my best shot! :)

    I have a Living Bible around somewhere - I'll just quote from that.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    This could get a bit tricky. The printout she sent you is from the Proclaimers book pages 136-138, but her latest email talks about pages 133-135, so we are not only using info she supplied. If she asks, you could say that your local library has a copy. It probably does.

    I can't find anything that says that they predicted Christ's return for 1914, only that they thought it had already occured in 1874.  Page 137 says that "following 1914" they came to that understanding, but it doesn't say when.  Is that a mistake?  You said that they, and other churches, predicted Christ's return for 1914.  Where do I find that?

    The references to 1914 in page 135 call it "significant", "Kingdom of God would have obtained full, universal control", "annihilation of human institutions", "global troubles culminating in anarchy", "significant turning point for Jerusalem", "‘caught up in the clouds’ to meet the Lord" (Which is what Camping taught for May 21st and several earlier dates). Did any of this happen? How do you feel about the failure of the Watchtower to get any of these events right? Camping got it wrong, just like they did. Is he a false prophet because he had some fails, or is he still ok because he is a sincere Bible researcher and follower of Christ and just made mistakes and has a 'new' understanding now?

    Matthew says "A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit." yet the Proclaimers book contains a list of events that never happened. None of these scriptures have loopholes for 'mistakes'.

    How do the scriptures you sent not describe the Watchtower?

    Matt 7:15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

    21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

    Matt 24:11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

    1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

    Here is another one.
    Deuteronomy 18:21 “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ 22 If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.

    If I had been a follower of Harold Camping and had jacked up my athiest neighbour to look after my pets after I was raptured I would feel sooooo foolish right now and that is pretty much what happened to the followers of the Watchtower according to the Proclaimers book. I really don't understand how I was supposed to read the Bible warnings about false prophets and the Proclaimers book without seeing 'bad fruit'? Maybe you can explain it?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    I may only have sporadic internet access for the next couple of months, so PM me if you need to get my attention.



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