by Terry 98 Replies latest jw friends
In the last...ummm...say twenty years the new JW recruits who knock on the door (rarely, if ever, happens) are dumb as a box of qualudes.
I don't think whatever is left of the TMS is reaching anybody any longer---if ever.
Anybody have anything to add to that?
Terry,
I bought the Little Red Book. It was to have a souvenir of the times. When I attended John Lennon's memorial service, I grabbed a twig from the Sheep Meadow. I think it was the Sheep Meadow, may have been the Great Lawn. If we don't go back in history for centuries, far more people have read Mao's book than the Bible.
Our Eurocentricity sneaks up on me someday. I love my Royal Shakespearean Company Jesus, who is very thin,blond, blue eye-d and has sparkly eyes.
I wholeheartedly agree that if WTBTS wanted to teach the Bible, we'd have a different program. We were the equivalent of Fuller Brush salesmen.
When I encouter Witnesses today (which I very rarely do unless I go through a major train station. Even then they are so engrossed in conversation, no one would bother me), I explain clearly and politely that I was raised a Witness but I have since studied the Bible and believe the Witnesses are very ignorant. Maybe b/c I try to say it with no rancor, they still try to preach to me. I explained that I took college courses, tried to learn Greek, have read the scholarship. Also, I say even if their doctrine were Biblical, the lack of love and autonomy would be the deal breaker. I made the mistake of giving her my name. She sent me a letter on looseleaf paper trying to convince me.
I admired her tenacity, esp. in contrast to the Witnesses in the train stations. She wasn't arrogant.
B/c of the Witnesses, I am almost too Bible oriented. Revelations come in other forms. Jesus did not call academics and scribes.
Terry,
I notice these days that all the JWs who call on me seem only too pleased to have an excuse to disengage from the enemy, and flee the field!
Towards the end of my time with the Witnesses, i.e. during the late 1980s / early 1990s, I noticed a growing reluctance to continue a conversations with anyone wishing to dispute a point.
Partly, I put this down to lack of practice.
Our congregation's territory took in part of a large low cost housing area:
- Jehovahs Witnesses, being nearly always in the lower socio-economic group (if not originally from it, certainly driven there by WTS policies), were attracted to such areas by necessity.
- Consequently, all the congregations in this vast area were spilling over with "publishers", and the territory was being covered every one to two weeks.
- People were utterly sick of us calling at their homes, the list of "Do Not Calls" almost equalled the number of homes where it was comparitavely safe to call at, most resident's vocabulary appeared to consist of little more than that "Fornication Under Consent of the King" word, and you were lucky even to reach their front door before being turned away.
- Getting into any sort of a conversation (let alone a deep one) was a notable exception.
- The only ones that showed any inclination to talk to us (if "talk to us" is an accurate description under those circumstances!) were ones from the more fundamantalist fringe groups of the Christian churches. These ones, though, were usually not too brilliant themselves - and only wanted to condemn us all to hellfire and damnation - not the sort of people you could get into a rational debate with (Though Rutherford and his sidekicks sound like they would have fitted quite well into that sort of a situation!).
Consequently, when the double exception was encountered - i.e. you met somebody who knew what they were talking about, AND was inclined to carry out a discussuion - the average JW was automatically placed in a position in which they had had no previous experience.
Incidentally, all agreed that the counsel / training / a#$ kicking - call it what you will - at the Kingdom Hall had very little relevance to reality, at least in our congregation's territory. Certainly, the WTS's claim that the "Territory is never worked to Death - only worked to Life" proved to be a very hollow one indeed!
This contrasted very much with the congregation I was with as a pioneer, some 20 years before that. That was in both an area and an era in which "Alerternate Lifestyles" were very much in vogue. The territory contained a large number of non-conformists - ranging from Hippies to Communists to the various Eastern Religions. Yet another non-conformist group such as JWs only attracted (usually) favorable attention, and you could get into some very interesting discussions with other non-conformists. Every time you went out in "service", you had opportunity to hone your (admittedly flawed) skills learned at the Kingdom Hall.
It would seem that these days, the JWs do not even have those opportunities anymore.
Bill.
This method must be very ineffective. If born again Christians with the Holy Spirit put in a fraction of the hours dedicated JWs do, our churches would be exploding. As it is, evangelicals worldwide are seeing great conversion growth (mostly outside of North America) despite not performing door to door to that extent and fewer hours by far (I suspect). I supposed being hundreds of millions instead of a few million makes a difference. Relational, friendship evangelism will always beat cold call salesmanship (I realize door to door does not make a group true nor does rate of growth or sheer numbers).
Now that I think about it--I don't think today's JW's are less intelligent at all.
I just realized the Internet has changed everything.
Let me explain...
BEFORE the world wide web made tens of thousands of scans of the Society's history/documents available none of us had a clue
what had been said or done or taught unless an older person mentioned it.
We of the good old days actually BELIEVED we were invincible because we generally were due to the fact none of the householders
had a clue who or what we were. They couldn't throw facts back at us or clearly reasoned refutations.
Today all that has changed. A lot of householders are savvy and just waiting to spring the trap.
Especially terrifying must be the occasional Apostate who knows everything and is only too eager to make real fight of it.
So, wisely (in my opinion) they run away and live to fight (or run away) another day.
The inter-net is slowly tearing away a lot of the built-in ignorance of the WTS. toward the JWS , equally as well toward general public.
Band on the Run's description of how an imagined WT heavyweight set out to gun down a Jesuit - but instead got chewed up and spat out himself - should hardly be surprizing:
- Certainly not when you consider what goes into the training of a Jesuit priest.
i.e.
1) Firstly, two years as a novice; which includes a study of Chruch and Jesuit history, the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola (prayer, meditation and mental exercises), and Ministries to the poor, sick and terminally ill.
2) A "First Studies" period of two to four years, in which the student acquires at least a Bachelors level Degree, with a solid grounding in Philosophy. Also, as the Jesuits are known for their Educational Ministries, the student will almost always earn a Masters or Doctorate level degree in some other area as well: - e.g. History, English, Chemistry, Law or Education.
3) A "Regency" period of two to three years, in which the student lives in a Jesuit Community, and serves in the Full time Ministry - usually teaching at a Secondary School. (If you think you know something, try explaining it to somebody else, then you find out how much you still don't know!).
4) Four years of Theological studies, during which he earns a Bachelor's Degree in Theology. Nearly always during this time, the student will also acquire a Masters Degree in a specialized area related to Theology.
5) Ordination, after which he will be given a Ministerial Assignment, or sent back to college for further studies in practically any academic field.
6) "Tertianship", several years after ordination. The Jesuit Priest repeats the fundamentals of Jesuit life that he learned while a novice.
7) Final vows.
This whole process can take up to 14 years, with heavy emphasis placed on academic learning and achievement, over a wide range of subjects.
By contrast ,somebody who has "graduated" from the Watchtower University, with a Diploma of Idiocy (acquired by reading Watchtower and Awake for 4 years) is not even in the hunt! (Whether a boozing partner of Rutherford, or not).
Watchtower Society propaganda, focusing as it usually does on the personal failings of individual Catholic priests, cannot disguise this reality.
Bill.
Terry,
:( I could recite 845 scriptures at will)
Wow! I was a Watchtower "scholar" and I only knew about fifty of them. Maybe a few more, but not much more. The average dub of say 20 years of slavery only knows about twenty of them.
This only proves that you knew a whopping lot more Bible bullshit than we knew!
Strangely enough, the local Elders resented me and my research and the local Circus Overseer definitely resented me. He promoted the village idiot who had just returned from four years of sweeping floors at Bethel as an Elder because of his "qualifications", which didn't include Bible knowledge or even decent speaking abilities or common grammar and wouldn't appoint me after a lifetime of service and many years as a pioneer, MS and public talk speaker.
The village idiot could not give an impromptu Instruction Talk when the speaker failed to show up on Thursday night for the KMS. I could and did it a number of times. The village idiot could not give a 20 minute Service Meeting talk when the speaker failed to show up. I did a number of times. The village idiot could not given an impromptu Hour "Public" talk when the speaker failed to show up. I did that several times. The village idiot became an elder. I became free and got my own life back.
Am I sour about that? Hell no! It was the greatest favor that CO ever did for me! He showed me in a very crystal clear way that like in our average life, politics play more of a part in decisions than qualifications. The Watchtower Corporation is every bit as political as the political system it reviles.
Pot. Kettle. Black. Same hypocricy, but the significant difference is, politicians don't typically claim that they are the EXCLUSIVE mouth piece for God, and they don't fuck people's lives up as coldly and as callously as the Watchtower Printing Corporation does. Politicians provide Social Security and other benefits. The Watchtower Printing Corporation offers nothing, except terrorism on its own followers and grief and false promises.
ALWAYS promises which are false. Always.
Farkel, No More Bible-Bullshit CLASS
Strangely enough, the local Elders resented me and my research and the local Circus Overseer definitely resented me. He promoted the village idiot who had just returned from four years of sweeping floors at Bethel as an Elder because of his "qualifications", which didn't include Bible knowledge or even decent speaking abilities or common grammar and wouldn't appoint me after a lifetime of service and many years as a pioneer, MS and public talk speaker.
The village idiot could not give an impromptu Instruction Talk when the speaker failed to show up on Thursday night for the KMS. I could and did it a number of times. The village idiot could not give a 20 minute Service Meeting talk when the speaker failed to show up. I did a number of times. The village idiot could not given an impromptu Hour "Public" talk when the speaker failed to show up. I did that several times. The village idiot became an elder. I became free and got my own life back.
I know what you mean, Farkle!
The various weekly (weakly!) meetings had so many boring, untalented, droning speakers representing uber-deity Jehovah it was enough to make your teeth itch.
You'd think nothing would be more of a refutation to Theocratic Ministry School effectiveness than a few hours spent listening to the product of said education!
I've told this story before...
One Friday night after the meeting I was approached by the Congregation Overseer (no elders back then). He handed me an hour talk outline for Sunday's public lecture: How Practical is the Search for Wealth?
Brother Beard said to me, "Brother Walstrom, the scheduled guest speaker from the Denton congregation can't make it this Sunday. We need you to
present the talk." And he walked away.
Okaaaaayyyyyy...
One thing I had going for me was an eidetic memory (back before my brandy days!) and a wayward youth spent learning memory techniques because my Grandfather would pay me to learn them!
I worked up the talk using a series of "links" I associated with my body parts! (don't ask).
On Sunday I gave a rip-roaring, upbeat, entertaining and funny talk that had people coming up to me patting me on the back and congratulating me
afterward.
But, not Brother Beard. Nooooo.
He took me aside and tersely "suggested", "Brother Walstrom our purpose in giving public lectures is to bring glory to Jehovah; not ourselves!"
End of admonition.
What the..?
I thought to myself, "You're welcome!"
I guess that is why there are so many crushingly inept, boring, droning speakers giving these excruciatingly awful talks!
Those were the days, eh?.....I suspect the TMS of today could not hold a candle to the one of years gone by. One reason a jw will cut and run when confronted by real Bible knowledge. At least we learned something in days gone by.
Positive topic Terry....great comments made by all. On an aside Joe Tosti told me two years before it became a df offense that any one using tobacco would be df'd Joe was an odd ball, but knew how to grow a garden....
Want to study and learn about the Bible? READ AND STUDY EVERYTHING YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON, history, philosophy, history of the Bible Cannon, how the Bible was composed in written form, history of Bible translations, church history. Best place to start, as Terry mentioned, is who wrote the Bible. Read, read, read the most important thing when doing so is read both pro and con. Also, study evolution, you will be surprised.
